Mortars, spotters and HIP

[SFiedler]

Hi

Situation:

1 HIP Mortar on a rooftop out of LOS for all enemy
2. ADJACENT to the mortar a HIP hs acting as spotter

Questions:

1. Using spotted fire do I need to Unhip/reveal/mark units on the board and what nits are marked/revealed?
2. How do I handle LOS checks? Openly/Hidden
3.a When firering do I need to state from where the fire originates?
3.b IF yes in in 3a do I state fire from the spotter or mtr hex?

Regards from Stefan, oberkommando Budapest defending the city of eternal heroes (CG3) against the russian horde(TM)

 

[jrv]

Situation:

1 HIP Mortar on a rooftop out of LOS for all enemy
2. ADJACENT to the mortar a HIP hs acting as spotter

Questions:

1. Using spotted fire do I need to Unhip/reveal/mark units on the board and what nits are marked/revealed?
2. How do I handle LOS checks? Openly/Hidden
3.a When firering do I need to state from where the fire originates?
3.b IF yes in in 3a do I state fire from the spotter or mtr hex?

Per A12.141, spotting is not a concealment loss activity, so a HIP spotter remains HIP, and a concealed spotter remains concealed. The MTR also would remain HIP if there is no LOS to an enemy unit capable of causing concealment loss and it were allowed to set up HIP, as firing while not in LOS is not a concealment loss activity. However, a MTR on a rooftop may not set up emplaced [B23.85], and so typically will not set up HIP [A12.34] unless using CG FPP.

All players I have played treat spotting as a "secret" activity, i.e. you don't indicate which unit is performing the action, and LOS checks are hidden. C9.3 indicates that the spotter should be marked with a fire counter (if not HIP), however, and so a spotter that is merely concealed would be apparent to your opponent if you don't use this house rule.

JR

 

[SFiedler]

Thanks.

In a CG where HIP can be bought can I HIP the mtr Crew (on the rooftop) and as he possess the mtr it will become HIP as well? In other words is emplacement a prerequisite for HIP?




/S

 

[jrv]

In a CG where HIP can be bought can I HIP the mtr Crew and as he possess the mtr it will become HIP as well? In other words is emplacement a prerequisite for HIP?

That would depend on the CG. The purchase rules for the RB/VotG/FB series don't seem to answer the question really well. Because their purchase rules grant HIP to "SW" possessed by the unit, I read it as implying that a Gun would not be granted HIP. But that's the result of me reading meaning into the rule. Per A12.2, a possessed Gun/SW shares the concealment status of its possessor.

JR

 

[Bill Cirillo]

Hey JRV,

I just responded to this same question over in the MMP folder.

Nothing in the FB rules grants non-Emplaced Guns the ability to be HIPed and as you point out, per B23.85, "a Gun may never be Emplaced (C11.2) on a Rooftop."

Thanks.

Bill

That would depend on the CG. The purchase rules for the RB/VotG/FB series don't seem to answer the question really well. Because their purchase rules grant HIP to "SW" possessed by the unit, I read it as implying that a Gun would not be granted HIP. But that's the result of me reading meaning into the rule. Per A12.2, a possessed Gun/SW shares the concealment status of its possessor.

JR

 

[jrv]

Hey JRV,

I just responded to this same question over in the MMP folder.

Nothing in the FB rules grants non-Emplaced Guns the ability to be HIPed and as you point out, per B23.85, "a Gun may never be Emplaced (C11.2) on a Rooftop."

That only means A12.34 can't be used to grant HIP, which was not in dispute. The question remains, if FPP are expended to make a crew HIP, would a possessed Gun be HIP too? Per A12.2, a weapon shares the concealment status of its possessor. There is no rule in the ASLRB that states that a non-emplaced Gun can't be HIP. It never happens because nothing allows anything to be HIP except F12.34 and an SSR (ok, and fortifications). FB introduces a rule that allows units to gain HIP via FPP purchase, and per A12.2, their possessed weapons should share that status unless FB disallows it. The footnote on the FPP chart seems like it believes that it also has to grant the HIP to possessed SW (and pointedly not to Guns), but I believe that A12.2 means that possessed SW would be HIP even without the footnote, and that Guns should also be by A12.2.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Per A12.141, spotting is not a concealment loss activity, so a HIP spotter remains HIP, and a concealed spotter remains concealed. The MTR also would remain HIP if there is no LOS to an enemy unit capable of causing concealment loss and it were allowed to set up HIP, as firing while not in LOS is not a concealment loss activity. However, a MTR on a rooftop may not set up emplaced [B23.85], and so typically will not set up HIP [A12.34] unless using CG FPP.

All players I have played treat spotting as a "secret" activity, i.e. you don't indicate which unit is performing the action, and LOS checks are hidden. C9.3 indicates that the spotter should be marked with a fire counter (if not HIP), however, and so a spotter that is merely concealed would be apparent to your opponent if you don't use this house rule.

JR

Raising this question again after seaching the forum.

I agree to JR on what he says above.

In my last game the question arose, what to to with regard to marking a HIP/Concealed/non-HIP Spotter and HIP/Concealed/non-HIP MTR with "the appropriate fire counter". This could of course compromise the location of a HIP/Concealed out of LOS MTR etc.

C9.3:
"...Spotting is considered the equivalent of using a SW for purposes of movement curtailment and inherent FP loss; the Spotter must be predesignated by the owning player during his PFPh/DFPh and marked with an appropriate fire counter for having used a SW during that phase. If the Spotter is hidden, it must be recorded as a Spotter..."

By gut feeling I would say if the MTR/Spotter may remain HIP/Concealed as above, then I'd play it that they do not need to be marked by a fire counter.

What does the hive-mind say on this?

TIA,
von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Since it is HIP, the counter is presumably off board. Do as the rule says and mark it with the appropriate fire counter.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Since it is HIP, the counter is presumably off board. Do as the rule says and mark it with the appropriate fire counter.

JR

I like this way of thinking!

But this would also mean if the Spotter/MTR is merely concealed on-board, it would have to be marked, eliminating some fog of war, correct?

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

I like this way of thinking!

But this would also mean if the Spotter/MTR is merely concealed on-board, it would have to be marked, eliminating some fog of war, correct?

von Marwitz

By the rule yes but meh, don't believe you'd ever have a problem instituting a house rule on the spot as the fire counter is a memory aid anyway [EXC: If your opponent was a real dickhead-then it's not worth playing them anyway].

 

[Steve E7]

Absent any HIP SSR or HASL/CG specific rule - the setup HIP status of the mortar does not grant its spotter HIP - correct?

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Correct. A12.34 only grants HIP to an Emplaced Gun and its manning crew.