More questions on Gun Batteries

Jon

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Hi

Some questions on Gun Batteries and TEM

Situation 1:

8535

The Japanese squad is in Crest Status in Gun battery hex W27. CtR2.1 says "All rules for Crest Status (B20.9) apply"
a) The US Mtr fires from Roofles building hex V24 (as per CtR 1.2) and scores a hit. The TEM on the IFT effects role is 0. Correct?
[As an aside, the EX in CtR2.1 is incorrect because Mortars do not use Case Q DRM on TH rolls]

b) The US squad in V24 level 1 now fires is IFP at the Japanese unit. Does the Japanese unit receive TEM of +2 (as per Crest rules B20.9) or +3 as the CtR2.1 EX states? Thee actual CtR2.1 rule says units IN the Gun battery receive +3 TEM, but a unit in Crest Status is not IN the gun battery

c) The Japanese squad in Crest Status is now fired upon by the ADJACENT US squad in hex X27. What TEM applies? As per the Crest rules (B20.9), Crest status benefits should not apply as the US squad has a LOS INTO the Gun battery depression hex. So does the Japanese squad receive +2 Crest DRM, +3 Gun battery or 0 DRM as per B20.9?

Situation 2:

8536 DRM

The Japanese squad in W27 is now IN the Gun Battery.

a) The US units in V24 level1no longer have LOS to the Japanese unit. Correct?

b) The ADJACENT US squad in X27 fires at the Japanese unit. What TEM does the Japanese unit receive?
CtR2.1 says a unit IN a Gun Battery receives +3 DRM to all Direct Fire attacks. Is this correct for this case? [I picture the Gun battery as like an empty concrete swimming pool and am struggling to see how a unit IN the Depression receives +3TEM to PBF coming from the ADJACENT higher level , grenades being tossed down, etc

I'm also wondering why a unit IN a Gun Battery receives a +5DRM to all Indirect Fire/OBA/NOBA/Aerial attacks whenDesigner Note 18 says the guns and crews in a Gun Battery were "extremely vulnerable to counter-battery fire and aerial attacks" I'm not sure a +5 DRM is "extremely vulnerable" :)

Situation 3

8537

In Gun battery hex V27 there is the following:
4-4-8 squad in Crest Status
4-4-7 squad IN the Gun battery
3-4-7 squad located in the Stone building that leads to the Powder magazine
There is no unit in the powder Magazine (the Cellar Location of the Stone building)

a) Any suggestion on how to differentiate who is IN the building and who is just IN the Gun Battery (other then memory)?

b) The US units in V25 Level 1 have LOS to only the Japanese unit in Crest status, so
- The US squad IFP can affect only the Crest Japanese unit
- The US Mtr can fire HE at the hex as it sees the crest unit. If it hits the Crest unit, it is attacked with 0 DRM (B20.9). The out of LOS Japanes units would also be hit by the Mortar as per C3.33.
What DRM does the 4-4-7 IN the Gun Battery receive, is it +5 as per CtR 2.1
What DRM does the 3-4-7 in the Fortified Stone building receive, is it +5 as per CtR2.1 or +4 for a Fortified Stone building [B23.921]

c) The ADJACENT US squad in U26 fires IFP at V27. This squad has LOS INTO the Gun Battery Depression hex.What TEMs apply to
- the 4-4-8 in Crest status? [+2 TEM, +3 TEM or 0 TEM?
- the 4-4-7 IN the Gun battery? [+3 TEM or 0 TEM?]
- the 3-4-7 in the fortified Stone building? [+4 TEM?]

Thanks in advance

Cheers
Jon
 

rreinesch

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Hi

Some questions on Gun Batteries and TEM

Situation 1:

View attachment 8535

The Japanese squad is in Crest Status in Gun battery hex W27. CtR2.1 says "All rules for Crest Status (B20.9) apply"
a) The US Mtr fires from Roofles building hex V24 (as per CtR 1.2) and scores a hit. The TEM on the IFT effects role is 0. Correct?
[As an aside, the EX in CtR2.1 is incorrect because Mortars do not use Case Q DRM on TH rolls]
Yes, the IFT DRM is 0. Not sure what you are referring to as an inaccuracy as we note that the DRM is +0 as noted in B20.92.

b) The US squad in V24 level 1 now fires is IFP at the Japanese unit. Does the Japanese unit receive TEM of +2 (as per Crest rules B20.9) or +3 as the CtR2.1 EX states? Thee actual CtR2.1 rule says units IN the Gun battery receive +3 TEM, but a unit in Crest Status is not IN the gun battery
The TEM is +3 for the units in Crest status. The reason that the TEM is +2 in B20.9 is that it makes an equivalency with being in Crest status to the same as being in a foxhole. Well in our case that foxhole is lined with concrete. The TEM DRM is +3. Yes they are IN the Drepression hex that is the Gun Battery. You are in Crest status in that Depression hex (which happens to be a Gun Battery hex), which is no different than being in Crest status of a gully.

c) The Japanese squad in Crest Status is now fired upon by the ADJACENT US squad in hex X27. What TEM applies? As per the Crest rules (B20.9), Crest status benefits should not apply as the US squad has a LOS INTO the Gun battery depression hex. So does the Japanese squad receive +2 Crest DRM, +3 Gun battery or 0 DRM as per B20.9?
The units in Crest status would have 0 TEM DRM benefits as per B20.92.

Situation 2:

View attachment 8536 DRM

The Japanese squad in W27 is now IN the Gun Battery.

a) The US units in V24 level1no longer have LOS to the Japanese unit. Correct?
Correct.

b) The ADJACENT US squad in X27 fires at the Japanese unit. What TEM does the Japanese unit receive?
CtR2.1 says a unit IN a Gun Battery receives +3 DRM to all Direct Fire attacks. Is this correct for this case? [I picture the Gun battery as like an empty concrete swimming pool and am struggling to see how a unit IN the Depression receives +3TEM to PBF coming from the ADJACENT higher level , grenades being tossed down, etc

I'm also wondering why a unit IN a Gun Battery receives a +5DRM to all Indirect Fire/OBA/NOBA/Aerial attacks whenDesigner Note 18 says the guns and crews in a Gun Battery were "extremely vulnerable to counter-battery fire and aerial attacks" I'm not sure a +5 DRM is "extremely vulnerable" :)
The TEM DRM to DF in this case is +3. It's not exactly like an empty swimming pool as there were lots of things to take cover behind (gun mounts, ammo boxes, replacement gun tubes. It certainly wasn't a pristine environment). The +5 is there for the same reason that foxholes and trenches get +4 vs OBA/Indirect Fire. While units were down in them, they were out of harms way for the most part from shrapnel flying around. Now if one of those shells landed IN the gun battery (i.e., a CH), then that -5 DRM is a bitch on the IFT.

Situation 3

View attachment 8537

In Gun battery hex V27 there is the following:
4-4-8 squad in Crest Status
4-4-7 squad IN the Gun battery
3-4-7 squad located in the Stone building that leads to the Powder magazine
There is no unit in the powder Magazine (the Cellar Location of the Stone building)

a) Any suggestion on how to differentiate who is IN the building and who is just IN the Gun Battery (other then memory)?
I would use a Fortified marker on top of the unit in the building.

b) The US units in V25 Level 1 have LOS to only the Japanese unit in Crest status, so
- The US squad IFP can affect only the Crest Japanese unit
Correct.
- The US Mtr can fire HE at the hex as it sees the crest unit. If it hits the Crest unit, it is attacked with 0 DRM (B20.9). The out of LOS Japanes units would also be hit by the Mortar as per C3.33.
Correct, but with different IFT DRMs based on their Location status.

What DRM does the 4-4-7 IN the Gun Battery receive, is it +5 as per CtR 2.1
Yes, unless it is a CH.

What DRM does the 3-4-7 in the Fortified Stone building receive, is it +5 as per CtR2.1 or +4 for a Fortified Stone building [B23.921]
+4 for a Fortified Stone Building.

c) The ADJACENT US squad in U26 fires IFP at V27. This squad has LOS INTO the Gun Battery Depression hex.What TEMs apply to
- the 4-4-8 in Crest status? [+2 TEM, +3 TEM or 0 TEM?
0 TEM

- the 4-4-7 IN the Gun battery? [+3 TEM or 0 TEM?]
+3 TEM

- the 3-4-7 in the fortified Stone building? [+4 TEM?]
+4 TEM
 

Jon

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Hi
Yes, the IFT DRM is 0. Not sure what you are referring to as an inaccuracy as we note that the DRM is +0 as noted in B20.92.
The CtR2.1 EX reads (with my emphasis) "If the American squad possessed a 60mm mortar instead of the HMG and fired at the same Japanese, the shot would incur a +0 TH DRM to Crest Status (B20.92)"

Not a gamebreaker but Mortars do not ever use TEM (Case Q) TH DRMs. This sentence should read something like "If the American squad possessed a 60mm mortar instead of the HMG and fired at the same Japanese, scoring a hit, there would be a +0 TEM DRM on the resulting Effects DR to Crest Status (B20.92)"

Cheers
Jon
 

rreinesch

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Hi


The CtR2.1 EX reads (with my emphasis) "If the American squad possessed a 60mm mortar instead of the HMG and fired at the same Japanese, the shot would incur a +0 TH DRM to Crest Status (B20.92)"

Not a gamebreaker but Mortars do not ever use TEM (Case Q) TH DRMs. This sentence should read something like "If the American squad possessed a 60mm mortar instead of the HMG and fired at the same Japanese, scoring a hit, there would be a +0 TEM DRM on the resulting Effects DR to Crest Status (B20.92)"

Cheers
Jon
Ah, gotcha. Good catch. I knew that, but I sure as hell didn't say it right.
 

Jon

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Hi

Thanks for all the answers

The TEM is +3 for the units in Crest status. The reason that the TEM is +2 in B20.9 is that it makes an equivalency with being in Crest status to the same as being in a foxhole. Well in our case that foxhole is lined with concrete. The TEM DRM is +3. Yes they are IN the Drepression hex that is the Gun Battery. You are in Crest status in that Depression hex (which happens to be a Gun Battery hex), which is no different than being in Crest status of a gully.
If units in Crest Status of a Gun Battery are to receive +3 TEM to direct fire, might I suggest that the last sentence of CtR2.1 should read
"All rules for Crest Status (B20.9) apply (EXC: the entrenchment TEM of B20.91 for Direct Fire is +3, not +2)"

This would then match the CtR2.1 EX for Direct Fire against a Crest Status unit and remove the confusion it creats (for me anyway) that CtR2.1 curently reads that the TEM is +3 for units IN the Gun battery while for Crest status units, all B20.9 rules apply (since the B20.9 rule only grants +2 TEM)

Thanks again

Cheers
Jon
 

Will Fleming

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So a unit IN the gun battery (+5 vs OBA), but not in the fortified building semi-location there is less vulnerable to OBA (+4 vs OBA)? The guys IN the cellar would get +5 vs OBA? (+4 for fortified stone building, +1 for the 'semi-location' above) or would they only get +4 vs OBA?

As for CH's, there probably isn't much difference between a 30 (-4) and a 30 (-5) shot. Pretty much the same results, especially with a stacking limit of 1.
 

rreinesch

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So a unit IN the gun battery (+5 vs OBA), but not in the fortified building semi-location there is less vulnerable to OBA (+4 vs OBA)? The guys IN the cellar would get +5 vs OBA? (+4 for fortified stone building, +1 for the 'semi-location' above) or would they only get +4 vs OBA?

As for CH's, there probably isn't much difference between a 30 (-4) and a 30 (-5) shot. Pretty much the same results, especially with a stacking limit of 1.
Correct.
 

ASLSARGE

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So a unit IN the gun battery (+5 vs OBA), but not in the fortified building semi-location there is less vulnerable to OBA (+4 vs OBA)? The guys IN the cellar would get +5 vs OBA? (+4 for fortified stone building, +1 for the 'semi-location' above) or would they only get +4 vs OBA?

As for CH's, there probably isn't much difference between a 30 (-4) and a 30 (-5) shot. Pretty much the same results, especially with a stacking limit of 1.
Don't know if this helps or not. The gun battery rules were designed to stay simple, yet try to convey something not so simple. The +5 to OBA, if you are considering the gun battery location like a swimming pool, would be all out of proportion. In reality, the outer walls inside of the gun battery had numerous doorways and rooms. No way to design that into an ASL product without throwing everything out of proportion, so I designed for effect. When the freight train sounds filled the air, guys in the gun battery would naturally seek the cover inside those reinforced concrete doorways and rooms to avoid the incoming OBA shells. Those rooms went pretty far back (into the hill if you will) so, yes, they would provide more cover than the fortified building. which could be very easily hit directly.
 

rreinesch

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Is the building in a 'gun battery' a rally location/destination?

Does this change if the building is already full?
Yes. If it is full, then the guys are basically SOL as any overstacked units in the hex as subject to elimination and CVP awarded to the opponent.
 

Cartouche 7.62

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View attachment 8537

In Gun battery hex V27 there is the following:
4-4-8 squad in Crest Status
4-4-7 squad IN the Gun battery
3-4-7 squad located in the Stone building that leads to the Powder magazine
There is no unit in the powder Magazine (the Cellar Location of the Stone building)
This Powder Magazine is a very big deal. It should deserve more rules or clarification in order to solve all possible cases.
I use the example of Jon.

a)The 7-4-7 in UV26 advances IN V27 using 2MF as it can't enter in the Fortified Stone Building occupied by an unpinned Good Order squad.
1-Because of the Stone Building, can an Ambush occur?
2-If there is no result in the following CC, are the four squads held in Melee?

b)We suppose the 3-4-7 located in the Stone Building is pinned.
1-Can the 7-4-7 in U26 advance in V27 using 4MF (it becomes CX doing so) to enter in the Fortified Stone Building occupied by a pinned Good Order squad?

Thanks.
 
Last edited:

ASLSARGE

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This Powder Magazine is a very big deal. It should deserve more rules or clarification in order to solve all possible cases.
I use the example of Jon.

a)The 7-4-7 in UV26 advances IN V27 using 2MF as it can't enter in the Fortified Stone Building occupied by an unpinned Good Order squad.
1-Because of the Stone Building, can an Ambush occur?
2-If there is no result in the following CC, are the four squads hold in Melee?

b)We suppose the 3-4-7 located in the Stone Building is pinned.
1-Can the 7-4-7 in U26 advance in V27 using 4MF (it becomes CX doing so) to enter in the Fortified Stone Building occupied by a pinned Good Order squad?

Thanks.
Thanks for the questions. I'll try to address them as best as possible. You may disagree with the answers, but this is the intent of the rules as written.
First of all, I think your request that we needed to include as many clarifications or rules as possible to solve any and all possible cases is a virtual impossibility given the complexity of ASL. A glance at all the errata and Perry Sez that have been published over the years proves that even the grand tome of all things ASL cannot cover every possible situation. As exceptions and questions arise, they are addressed and dealt with. Could the descriptions used in the CtR rules been clearer or written better? Probably. Most players I have dealt with seem to grasp the concepts presented so I was happy with the final result. With that disclaimer laid out, let's actually address your specific questions. Not trying to sound put-off-ish cuz I am not. The request, while an ideal, is just not possible...I wish it were.
Using the example you attached......there are three Japanese squads (all good order) in hex V27. Each of those squads is in a separate Location within that hex. THAT is critical to the answers you seek. The 747 cannot enter the Fortified building because there is a Good order enemy squad inside. Even if that squad were Pinned or broken, the 747 still may not enter the Fortified building as there are two other enemy squads outside that building in the same hex. The 747 would have to eliminate those two other squads and then pin, break, or eliminate the 447 prior to any attempt to enter that Fortified building. The 747, unless Berserk, cannot enter hex V27 until the Advance Phase. When he does so he would need to engage both the 448 and 347 squads in Close Combat. The 447 inside the Fortified building is in a separate Location within that hex, and as such would not participate in that initial CC. Sort of like the 747 advancing into a Level 0 building location with an enemy unit, and another enemy unit was in a separate Location at Level 1. Only the enemy unit at Level 0 would engage in that CC.
Take a look at B20.94 Fire/CC vs units in Crest status and CC with them. Covers it pretty well. CtR rule 2.1 states "All rules for Crest Status apply." , and so they would in the example you showed. If the 448 is held in Melee he drops Crest Status. He also is subject to the DRM's listed in B20.94. Now you would have a 448 and a 347 in Melee with the 747 in hex V27 but outside of the Fortified building. Sort of like units in the same hex as but outside of a pillbox can be in Melee while the pillbox occupants are not involved. Or, if the 448 were in Crest status in a hex containing a gully and the 347 were IN the Gully, when the 747 advanced into the gully hex he would be in CC with both enemy squads. The 747 could choose to attack just one just like he has that option in any CC attack. If he does so, then he would be held in Melee by the surviving squad even if he eliminated the one squad he enagaged in CC with.
Since the 447 inside the building is not participating in the CC there is no possibility of ambush since neither the 448, the 347, nor the 747 are in the building. If there is no result in the CC, then only the 448 the 347 are held in Melee with the 747.
I hope that answers your questions sufficiently to allow you to continue your game. Just an FYI - I don't get the chance to visit the GS ASL Forums a lot anymore on a regular basis due to the backlog of projects requiring my attention. So if you don't hear a response from me feel free to reach out to Rick....he's pretty well versed in all things BFP.
 
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