More questions about E1.6

[Shmitty008]

I know there are a couple threads on this, but they all seem to taper off without any resolution. By SSR in a night scenario, the Germans in 1939 are "Normal". E1.62 says that all Pre-1943 Germans are lax. Does the SSR declaration make them "normal" for CC/ambush purposes, for straying/jitter fire purposes, for both, or for neither?

In the absence of an SSR, does E1.61-E1.63 cover the same territory?

 

[Honosbinda]

SSR trumps the general rule, it says so. E1.6 says the SSR ultimately applies, so yes of course the SSR is definitive.

The rules E1.61 through E1.63 apply as usual as does every rule apply in the rule book unless an SSR contradicts it, I reckon

I think the resolution is absolutely clear. I don't know about these other threads....

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IIRC, there are several Q&A on the subject as well. Not sure they sort it out 100% though.

 

[Honosbinda]

IIRC, there are several Q&A on the subject as well. Not sure they sort it out 100% though.

Here is a QA answer on the topic of E1.6, indicating what I said, and in a similar vein:

j) In a Night scenario where the Majority Squad Type is defined per SSR, is there any situation where the players would use E.4?
A. No. Just as other rules are not used when overridden by SSR.

Basically, another way of stating this is: a rule is used as written unless there is an SSR that overrides it. Or, of course, official errata and nominally, as you've pointed out before, Q/A, though not official.

 

[Shmitty008]

So let's say a SSR in a night scenario declares the majority squad type of a partisan OOB "Normal". Does this override A11.17?

 

[Robin Reeve]

So let's say a SSR in a night scenario declares the majority squad type of a partisan OOB "Normal". Does this override A11.17?

Why not?

 

[Honosbinda]

So let's say a SSR in a night scenario declares the majority squad type of a partisan OOB "Normal". Does this override A11.17?

maybe this q/a helps, I'll let you analyze it,

[edit -- that being said, I would question the scenario and the scenario designer for specifying such a thing and making a muddle of things.

In other words, it's going to be possible for anyone to ask a series of hypothetical questions to enhance rules muddles, that would never come up otherwise!]

E1.6 - In a Night scenario, a SSR defines the Majority Squad Type as Lax. A stack (Unconcealed) consisting in two SMC and a Russian half-squad rolls for Ambush. E1.61 tells us that SMC are "in general" Stealthy at Night. a) Is the whole stack considered Lax (drm +1), because of the SSR? b) Is the whole stack considered Normal (drm 0), because of E.4 (same US # of Normal and Stealthy units)? c) Is the drm -1 because some units are Stealthy?
A. c; Majority Squad Type does not impact Ambush. Now assume the same stack must roll for Straying. d) Is it considered Lax, following the SSR? e) Is it considered Normal, following E.4?
A. d. This is Night, Majority Squad Type is set to Lax by SSR. A Cloaking counter containing a SMC rolls 6,1 for Straying. f) Does it Stray? g) Now if the SMC is Uncloaked, does it Stray?
A. Yes to both – Majority Squad Type is always used for Straying purposes – even when moving a single, non-Cloaked unit. Now a Cloaking counter containing a HS and a Leader wants to perform a Search attempt. h) Is the drm +1 for Lax, following the SSR? i) What is the drm if both units are Uncloaked?
A. No. In both cases the drm is -1 for Stealthy leader, and 0 (if Normal) or +1 (if Lax) for the HS, netting -1 or 0. Searching drm is per each single Stealthy or Lax unit, not per stack, so Majority Stack Type is irrelevant, just as for Ambush purposes. j) In a Night scenario where the Majority Squad Type is defined per SSR, is there any situation where the players would use E.4?
A. No. Just as other rules are not used when overridden by SSR.

 

[Shmitty008]

So - if I am understanding this correctly - E1.6-.63 apply only to "night stuff" (i.e. straying, jitter fire). A11.17 applies to searching, concealment gain, and ambush. Do they overlap at all? If the MST is listed by SSR as normal for an OOB made up entirely of units that would be stealthy under A11.17, are they normal for straying and jitter fire and stealthy for searching, concealment gain, and ambush?

Just trying to make sense of it all

 

[Honosbinda]

So - if I am understanding this correctly - E1.6-.63 apply only to "night stuff" (i.e. straying, jitter fire). A11.17 applies to searching, concealment gain, and ambush. Do they overlap at all? If the MST is listed by SSR as normal for an OOB made up entirely of units that would be stealthy under A11.17, are they normal for straying and jitter fire and stealthy for searching, concealment gain, and ambush?

Just trying to make sense of it all

ha, you and me both. I get the impression that yes, E1.6 et al apply to the night situations, and A11.17 is not affected. I would hope that an SSR telling us units are stealthy per A11.17 would be comprehensive and make sure it's also true for E1.6.

These designers typically don't miss being thorough about this, but..... Is there some specific instance in a specific scenario you have in mind?

 

[Shmitty008]

I'm playing DB068 - Exit Pole as the Germans. The SSR declares the majority squad type for the Germans as Normal, but E1.62 says pre 1943 Germans are always lax at night. We're having a problem separating whether the SSR applies only to the German straying/jitter fire thing and E1.62 is superseding A11.17, or if the Germans are completely normal for all intents and purposes. I'd say it's probably just rule lawyering all the same, but one of the great thing about this game is the opportunity to try to clean up grey areas

 

[Honosbinda]

I'm playing DB068 - Exit Pole as the Germans. The SSR declares the majority squad type for the Germans as Normal, but E1.62 says pre 1943 Germans are always lax at night. We're having a problem separating whether the SSR applies only to the German straying/jitter fire thing and E1.62 is superseding A11.17, or if the Germans are completely normal for all intents and purposes. I'd say it's probably just rule lawyering all the same, but one of the great thing about this game is the opportunity to try to clean up grey areas

Okay, well, I don't have that scenario and if it's from Dispatches from the Bunker, in general their reputation is good for scenarios, even if I don't play them all that much except at tournaments...

I would query why they thought it was necessary for the German's majority squad type to be considered normal? Honestly, they should explain the reason why they did this. Germans at that time generally hated night fighting based on a generalized opinion formed by my historical readings here and there.

So, why? If it's because the Germans were straying too much to get the job done, so they threw that in as a fix, that's one thing. I would disagree with it, though. I'd ask them about it. In general, German squads are not lax in CC for the purposes of A11.17, so I'd play it like they meant it that way, too. For what that is worth.

 

[Pyth]

Jake I think you guys are maybe missing the hard distinction between majority squad type and the individual squad's stealth rating... they dont interact *(edit, assuming there's an SSR proclaiming the Majority type, which there always is as far as I've ever seen). .

The SSR is defining the Majority Squad Type.

There is no conflict between pre 1943 german mmc (without an smc) being lax at night and the ssr declaring germans majority normal.... the only difficulty is knowing when to apply Majority Squad Type and when to apply individual squad type... and I think the RB is clear enough about it once you realize that these are two separate ratings that dont impact each other (so long as there's an SSR). Majority squad type does not bear on CC, including cc ambush... the individual ratings apply... so at night, a pre1943 german stacked with an smc would be get a ambush drm of -1 stealthly for the smc and the mmc is normal. If the smc were not there, the pre 1943 mmc is now lax and gets a +1 drm for ambush... at no time does the majority squad type come into play in that situation.

Im pretty confident about this Id love to hear if someone thinks any of that is wrong.

 

[Pyth]

Here's a particularly illuminating () Q&A:

E1.6

In a Night scenario, a SSR defines the Majority Squad Type as Lax. A stack (Unconcealed) consisting in two SMC and a Russian half-squad rolls for Ambush. E1.61 tells us that SMC are "in general" Stealthy at Night.
a) Is the whole stack considered Lax (drm +1), because of the SSR?
b) Is the whole stack considered Normal (drm 0), because of E.4 (same US # of Normal and Stealthy units)?
c) Is the drm -1 because some units are Stealthy?

A. c; Majority Squad Type does not impact Ambush.

Now assume the same stack must roll for Straying.
d) Is it considered Lax, following the SSR?
e) Is it considered Normal, following E.4?

A. d.

This is Night, Majority Squad Type is set to Lax by SSR. A Cloaking counter containing a SMC rolls 6,1 for Straying.
f) Does it Stray?
g) Now if the SMC is Uncloaked, does it Stray?

A. Yes to both – Majority Squad Type is always used for Straying purposes – even when moving a single, non-Cloaked unit.

Now a Cloaking counter containing a HS and a Leader wants to perform a Search attempt.
h) Is the drm +1 for Lax, following the SSR?
i) What is the drm if both units are Uncloaked?

A. No. In both cases the drm is -1 for Stealthy leader, and 0 (if Normal) or +1 (if Lax) for the HS, netting -1 or 0. Searching drm is per each single Stealthy or Lax unit, not per stack, so Majority Stack Type is irrelevant, just as for Ambush purposes.

j) In a Night scenario where the Majority Squad Type is defined per SSR, is there any situation where the players would use E.4?
A. No. Just as other rules are not used when overridden by SSR.

By the way... I completely retract my statement earlier that the RB is clear enough about when Majority Squad type and when not... without this Q&A I'd be completely lost. I cannot find anything in the RB that supports the answer about the straying SMC -- "A. Yes to both – Majority Squad Type is always used for Straying purposes – even when moving a single, non-Cloaked unit." This is a very clear answer but can anyone point to anything in the RB that supports it? Why is MST used for a solitary SMC's straying roll? I am officially as confused as anyone else. I took it for granted this Q&A clarified the RB... but it appears to on second look to be adding new content.

 

[Shmitty008]

Jake I think you guys are maybe missing the hard distinction between majority squad type and the individual squad's stealth rating... they dont interact *(edit, assuming there's an SSR proclaiming the Majority type, which there always is as far as I've ever seen). .

The SSR is defining the Majority Squad Type.

There is no conflict between pre 1943 german mmc (without an smc) being lax at night and the ssr declaring germans majority normal.... the only difficulty is knowing when to apply Majority Squad Type and when to apply individual squad type... and I think the RB is clear enough about it once you realize that these are two separate ratings that dont impact each other (so long as there's an SSR). Majority squad type does not bear on CC, including cc ambush... the individual ratings apply... so at night, a pre1943 german stacked with an smc would be get a ambush drm of -1 stealthly for the smc and the mmc is normal. If the smc were not there, the pre 1943 mmc is now lax and gets a +1 drm for ambush... at no time does the majority squad type come into play in that situation.

Im pretty confident about this Id love to hear if someone thinks any of that is wrong.

Ah, but therein lies the crux of the matter. The pre 1943 german lax blurb comes in E1.62 under the majority squad type rules. If there were an SSR declaring the Germans lax, that would fix the problem altogether. But there isn't, just a "Majority Squad Type" SSR. So this would mean that the Germans were normal for CC ambush purposes as I see it - even if it is 1939. Am I wrong on this point?

 

[Pyth]

I don't know if you are wrong but I think you are. I think the E1.61-63 rules apply lax/normal/stealth ratings to units at night (period). Those ratings are used for calculating MST when there is no SSR, but they apply outside of MST situations... i think the Q&A I posted supports that reading. But I know that I am missing some big piece of the puzzle here! I hope someone can clarify. I do think most issues can be resolved by reference to the Q&A... it gives a lot of "guidance-by-example." What's making me nuts is that I can't connect the guidance in the Q&A to actual Night rules in the RB! Where does it say that MST is not used for Ambush or Search? Where does it say that MST is used for single uncloaked unconcealed individual units for Straying? The Q&A is quite clear on these points, isn't it? ... but by drawing from what rules? And I'm not saying the rules aren't there, I just wish someone would point me to them.