Moon Says that CM x 2 Normandy Coming in 2009

Elvis

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A few people might still be playing CM:SF but nobody cares about it. It's a dud.

-dale

Not true at all. Not even close to true. But that is what I meant by it depends on who is doing the defining and how.
 

thewood

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So we come back to the question of what does interest in it mean? The evidence relative to the CM1 (all flavors) points to there being little interest. Other than vague BFC statements about better than expected, nothing points to CMSF really drawing anywhere near the crowd CM1 did. Is that even arguable or do we have to pull then numbers out again.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Nah, we should just keep this one. It keeps the whole CMx2 flair of the thing :D

I'm placing my bet for 3rd quarter of 2010. Specifically between the dates of August 25th and September 5th.
I'll take a piece of that action for June 10th.
 

Elvis

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So we come back to the question of what does interest in it mean? The evidence relative to the CM1 (all flavors) points to there being little interest. Other than vague BFC statements about better than expected, nothing points to CMSF really drawing anywhere near the crowd CM1 did. Is that even arguable or do we have to pull then numbers out again.
Not sure what numbers we could pull. I'll you the best number that none of us have access to. It isn't total sales but total downloads for the last patch. Percentage of copies sold vs patch updates 2 1/2 years later would tell a lot.

That being said I was responding not as a comparison to CMx1 but a couple of simple false statements.As I said, Dale was painting with a very wide brush. If you want to start narrowing the brush then it becomes pure speculation. Most of us don't really know anything about for sure and it ends up becoming a circle j***. But false statements like
not producing games people want
Are obviously false without even having to know anything "behind the scenes".Of course people want them. People have been buying the game and continue to buy the game and modules.
failed to ignite any real spark of interest
False. And coming from him it is even more surprising. This is a guy who for over 2 years has been posting about a game he has not played saying there is no interest in it. Seriously? When have any of us devoted that much time and effort into something that doesn't interest us? Any frequent poster on this forum has an interest in the game, let alone the people posting on the BFC forums.
A few people might still be playing CM:SF but nobody cares about it.
I interact with plenty of people everyday that care and are still making scenarios and some are carping that NATO work has been slowed down for CM:N. And that is setting aside speaking in absolutes like "nobody", "any" and "not producing games people want" (these are the things that usually draw my attention though).
 

dalem

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Oh Elvis, you keep making fun of me for repeating myself but you still don't get it - I have no interest in CMx2 as a player. And you cannot really counter the fact that online forum and group interest for CMx2 has been and remains low-to-nonexistant.

And I have a group of friends here that I largely met through playing CM. Not a one of us bought CMSF and none of us have any real interest in CMN if it were to come out. So my anecdote balances yours, I guess. ;)

-dale
 

Sgt_Kelly

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And you cannot really counter the fact that online forum and group interest for CMx2 has been and remains low-to-nonexistant.
Arguably a poor yardstick for the success of a game that was meant to be geared towards people playing the content delivered with the game and then move on. CMx2 is consciously designed to have far less replay value than CMx1 did.

It seems to me that BFC's ideal customer today plays the campaign delivered with the title and then patiently sits around waiting for the next one to come out. BFC don't give a crap if he joins the forum, tries to make scenarios or has a go at playing a QB against human opposition, never mind starting up a bloody website. None of that earns them any money.

So the question is more : how many of these guys did they manage to reach ?

An argument you COULD make, but it would still be conjecture, is that they might not have turned around and reconstructed a lot of the features that they tore out for CMx2 back into the game if they felt they had reached enough of a new audience.
 

thewood

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Elvis you yourself were involved in the discussions where we brought up (several times) the lack of CMSF dedicated sites, numbers of scenarios, sales figures from Amazon, etc. These are the only numbers we have and they all point to lack of CMSF really catching on relative to CM1. Last time I looked, CMBB outsold CMSF on Amamzon. Even the posting environment at BFC is dismal compared to CM1. Peng and Normandy threads have been the only consistent threads over the last year. IIRC, the CMBB thread was actually at least as active as CMSF up to a year after CMSF's release.

I would be more than satisfied if you could produce anything beyond the fact that you talk to a lot of CMSF players. Thats like someone sitting in Fenway park and marveling that everyone in the world must be Red Sox fan because they are all around him. CMSF had that initial spark of interest based on its name and that petered out after poeple got to the 5th or 6th patch and realized it was a long way from being fixed. And the disappointment in NATO being delayed has me carping too. I would rather see BFC finish what it starts and the longer they delay it, the more likely it won't come out.
 

thewood

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Sgt Kelly,

I follow your logic, but CMSF never had that following. Even short term games that spark get fan sites and buzz going. The only buzz CMSF got was pretty negative.
 

Elvis

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Elvis you yourself were involved in the discussions where we brought up (several times) the lack of CMSF dedicated sites, numbers of scenarios, sales figures from Amazon, etc. These are the only numbers we have and they all point to lack of CMSF really catching on relative to CM1. Last time I looked, CMBB outsold CMSF on Amamzon. Even the posting environment at BFC is dismal compared to CM1. Peng and Normandy threads have been the only consistent threads over the last year. IIRC, the CMBB thread was actually at least as active as CMSF up to a year after CMSF's release.

I would be more than satisfied if you could produce anything beyond the fact that you talk to a lot of CMSF players. Thats like someone sitting in Fenway park and marveling that everyone in the world must be Red Sox fan because they are all around him. CMSF had that initial spark of interest based on its name and that petered out after poeple got to the 5th or 6th patch and realized it was a long way from being fixed. And the disappointment in NATO being delayed has me carping too. I would rather see BFC finish what it starts and the longer they delay it, the more likely it won't come out.
thewood, I hope this does not come off as disrespectful because it is not intended to be. Did you read what I wrote and what I had responded to? In neither dalems initial posts and in my responses to them did either of us mention CMx1 or compare CMSF to it. I have expressed no opinion about CMx1 success or popularity in relation to CMSF. It has nothing to do with the posts I made or the points I was making. This is now my 5th response and my "message" has been consistent the entire time so this is not spin. People seem to be making assumptions and putting words or thoughts in my name that I never expressed.

And I would challenge you to find a quote of mine from a previous thread comparing the popularity of CMx1 and CMSF. I have rather intentionally not gotten involved with those conversation siding one way or the other. They are mental masturbation will always begin and end in the same place since not of us have any real concrete information and none of us are likely to. I have seen these conversation that is certainly true. But I would be surprised if you can find any quote on any forum where I have taken a position on this. To use Steves expression...it is a fools errand.
 

Patrocles

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Elvis you yourself were involved in the discussions where we brought up (several times) the lack of CMSF dedicated sites, numbers of scenarios, sales figures from Amazon, etc. These are the only numbers we have and they all point to lack of CMSF really catching on relative to CM1. Last time I looked, CMBB outsold CMSF on Amamzon. Even the posting environment at BFC is dismal compared to CM1. Peng and Normandy threads have been the only consistent threads over the last year. IIRC, the CMBB thread was actually at least as active as CMSF up to a year after CMSF's release.

I would be more than satisfied if you could produce anything beyond the fact that you talk to a lot of CMSF players. Thats like someone sitting in Fenway park and marveling that everyone in the world must be Red Sox fan because they are all around him. CMSF had that initial spark of interest based on its name and that petered out after poeple got to the 5th or 6th patch and realized it was a long way from being fixed. And the disappointment in NATO being delayed has me carping too. I would rather see BFC finish what it starts and the longer they delay it, the more likely it won't come out.
Yes, imho there was definitely a longer, better life for CMBB and CMAK in terms of visible fan discussion.

Did BFC ever release figures for any games in the CMX1 series? iibc, Steve would not give hard numbers for CMSF sales, but he was always gushing about the sales of CMSF couched in the phrase sumfink like, "sales of CMSF are doing great and exceeded our target." Of course, they could move the 'sales target' to justify that response.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Yes, imho there was definitely a longer, better life for CMBB and CMAK in terms of visible fan discussion.

Did BFC ever release figures for any games in the CMX1 series? iibc, Steve would not give hard numbers for CMSF sales, but he was always gushing about the sales of CMSF couched in the phrase sumfink like, "sales of CMSF are doing great and exceeded our target." Of course, they could move the 'sales target' to justify that response.
They could set the sales target to "me, my wife, and Uncle Blinky" to begin with, since they never told anyone what it was. It's adspeak.

CMBB is still selling at respectable retail prices on Amazon. The outlier for some reason is $180.00 but I wouldn't read too much into that. :laugh:

The used ones are still fetching 30 dollars+

CM:SF is selling new for 19.99 there - and of course for 10 bucks or even 4 bucks in brick and mortar bargain bins.
 

thewood

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Elvis, you have talked about how successful CMSF is and how you talk to all these players who play it. There has to be some relativity somewhere. What do you consider successful. I would assume some form of commercial success plays in here. It wasn't a successful launch. It did not recieve good reviews. It was technically not very successful until a number of patches were out. It has a fairly noisy and persistent anti-CMSF group. How do you measure success. Is it only BFC's word you take for it.
 

PhillipCulliton

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Sort of related to definition of successful:

http://www.pcgamertop100.com/editorial/60-41/

CMBO beat out a lot of good games. I am a little taken aback that IL2 scored that much lower. I don't see CMSF on the llist.
CMBO was an engrossing, well-built, open-ended wargame that also happened to be the first to be so in 3D. I'd go so far as to say it was a revolution in wargaming. The inclusion of any wargames on that list is a surprise, frankly, but CMBO is the logical choice, isn't it? Are there any old Avalon Hill games on that list? Sid Meier's Gettysburg? SEAL Team, one of the best simulations of long-term low-intensity warfare ever produced?

There are thousands of great games that aren't on that list. I wouldn't call exclusion from it an indictment or point of comparison at all.
 

Elvis

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Elvis, you have talked about how successful CMSF is .......
When and where? I asked in my last post to find where I have made any claims for or against the success of CMSF. You haven't and I would be shocked if you ever will from any forum because, as I also said in my last post,, that conversation is a fools errand. You are assuming I am taking a position that I have never taken and then challenging me to defend it....even though I never expressed it.

(P.S. Sorry for the typos in the previous post. Trying to type while a 5 and 8 year old are clamoring for attention can be difficult at times and I am loath to use the edit feature because I have seen people rewrite their own history with it and don't want to be accused of the same.)
 

dalem

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Arguably a poor yardstick for the success of a game that was meant to be geared towards people playing the content delivered with the game and then move on. CMx2 is consciously designed to have far less replay value than CMx1 did.

It seems to me that BFC's ideal customer today plays the campaign delivered with the title and then patiently sits around waiting for the next one to come out. BFC don't give a crap if he joins the forum, tries to make scenarios or has a go at playing a QB against human opposition, never mind starting up a bloody website. None of that earns them any money.

So the question is more : how many of these guys did they manage to reach ?

An argument you COULD make, but it would still be conjecture, is that they might not have turned around and reconstructed a lot of the features that they tore out for CMx2 back into the game if they felt they had reached enough of a new audience.
I agree.

-dale
 

thewood

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Maybe I am mixing up my posts. You did say you talk to a lot of people who play. Outside the BFC website regulars, where do you fins them. So you have the chance to clarify. Do you think CMSF was successful and what is the yardstick?
 

thewood

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Just looking for opinions:

Does having CMBO recognized as one the top 50 game by a national publication help or hurt CM2.

I think it helps to bring BFC with some much needed recognition, but are the people reading magazines or sites like PCGamer going to buy CMN? Or are CM2 customers more likely visting wargamer.com and GS?
 

thewood

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I guess what I mean is how do you spin that your first attempt at an engine was so well received and that your second attempt not only isn't mentioned, but was poorly received. I mean it helps the BFC brand, but does it help the CM2 brand?
 
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