Modified Th for CH for Infantry Target

macrobo

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Hi All

Sry to remain dense to the rules - Just never get this straight

Does a PzIIIL TH at Russian crew ATG in stone building - rolls a 3 - Basic Th is an 8 at 6 hexes - Modified TH is (gun and ammo) BU +1 - double acquired -2 - but in stone + - is it left out of the CH calculation or is it included at this point though not a Gunn and ammo modifier)?

Yes or NO to CH

Thank you for your help

Cheers

Rob :giggle:
 

Binchois

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If the shot is Area Target Type, it would need to roll snakes. But since your shot is via the Infantry Target Type, it would be a CH only on snakes or if the Final TH DR is less than half of the Modified TH#.

With what you mention, it appears you have no modifiers to the Basic TH# (those listed in Section C4). So your Modified TH# remains 8. As for your Final TH DR, it is a 5 as you must include all drm including TEM (see Index definition of Final TH DR). There is no CH in this case.
 

bendizoid

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Hi All

Sry to remain dense to the rules - Just never get this straight

Does a PzIIIL TH at Russian crew ATG in stone building - rolls a 3 - Basic Th is an 8 at 6 hexes - Modified TH is (gun and ammo) BU +1 - double acquired -2 - but in stone + - is it left out of the CH calculation or is it included at this point though not a Gunn and ammo modifier)?

Yes or NO to CH

Thank you for your help

Cheers

Rob :giggle:
Looks like you left out target size modifier because every Russian AT gun (excerpt the rare100mm) has a white dot small size +1 TH on the M #.

Stone +3
Aqui -2
Bu +1
Small size mod +1
That’s net +3 so no way a crit, just a regular old 50mm 6 table w/ +2 for gun shield with ROF.
 
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aneil1234

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Agree with bendizoid

You right with your calculations for your basic to hit
infantry target type 0-6 hexes, basic to hit is 8
modified to hit (modified basically by gun type (*, nothing, L or LL) ammunition type (APCR, Smk) or calibre (<57 <=40) etc) which in this case is no modification and it stays at 8

To get a crit hit on a target using infantry target type you need to get a total to hit (with the DRM) less than half of the modified to hit (half being 4 and less than half therefore is 3)

Total DRM is
just as Bendizoid said (starting from the firer ending with the target) +1 BU No hindrances (0) +3 TEM +1 Small Target, -2 Acq for a total of +3)

Now you roll your two dice, ADDING the DRM to the result.
A 3 on the DR (doesn't matter which way around it is, a red 1 or 2 will indicate RoF, assuming that it is available ie not AFPh) now has +3 added (DRM) for a final DR of 6
this is of course not less than half of 8, and thus not a critical hit.
As you can see that even if you had rolled snakes (1,1) adding the DRM would make it a 5, this is still not less than half of 8. So it would not be an AUTOMATIC critical hit, and you would need to follow the steps to see if it was a CH per the last part of C3.7 (in this case you would need to roll a single dr, with a result of (1, 2 or 3, which in this case is less than or equal to the modified to hit of eight again) to get a non-automatic CH

But work it out the same way if the total DRMs were say -1 (plus 1 for BU and -1 for FFMO and FFNAM say) and then roll two dice. You would end up getting a CH on a 4 for less (-1 making the FINAL DR Less that 1/2 of 8 in this case) which is certainly something that can occur quite regularly

This is why it is important to separate what you actually need to hit (your modified to hit number) from your DRMs


This is a completely different system to when vehicle or area target type are used. In those cases, assuming that at MORE than 1,1 can hit the target ? a 1,1 (a.k.a. snakes) will be an automatic critical hit, it only gets confusing if you need exactly 1,1 to hit the target, or even worse less than 1,1 to do so. Then you're in the realms of improbable hits

The last point is that machine guns fired as To Hit/To Kill do not get critical hits, CH only work with the gun 15 mm or more

Hope this helped mate
 
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macrobo

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aneil YOU ARE THE MAN - Briefly I understand it again - wish it would stick!!!!

Cheers

Rob:love:
 

jrv

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The TH process uses a lot of technical terms for different numbers. With the Vehicle Target Type and the Area Target Type you can generally be sloppy applying the different numbers and still get the right answer. With the Infantry Target Type (ITT) you have to use the terms and numbers correctly to get the right answer for critical hits.

There are two To Hit (TH) numbers. The first TH number is the base TH number. That is the number you read off the C3 table by cross-referencing Target Type and Range and black/red TH numbers. The second is the modified TH number is the base TH number plus the modifications on the C4 table. These modifications are for gun barrel length (*, L & LL), ammo type (APDS/APCR & SMOKE) and gun caliber (≤ 57 mm, ≤ 40mm) as adjusted by range. For most ASL To Hit attempts the modified TH number is the same as the base TH number. The SMOKE modification is perhaps the most commonly applied. The others are not applied that frequently because they only come into effect at ranges > twelve hexes, and most ASL TH attempts are at ranges ≤ twelve hexes. Unless you are firing at long range or SMOKE, the base TH number will be the same as the modified TH number.

You must certainly note that up to now that I have not mentioned a lot of things that apply to the To Hit process, and those things are the TH DRM (To Hit Dice Roll Modifiers), things like BU, changing CA and FFMO, to name a few. That is because these do not apply to the To Hit numbers. They are modifiers to the To Hit Dice Roll (DR). There are two To Hit Dice Rolls, the Original To Hit Dice Roll and the Final To Hit Dice Roll. The Original To Hit DR is the sum of the numbers you read off the dice. The Final To Hit DR is the Original To Hit DR plus any Dice Roll Modifiers.

A critical hit on the Infantry Target Type occurs in two cases (ignoring improbable hits and TH attempts where only a snakeeyes would hit):
  1. The Final TH DR is < half the modified TH number
  2. If not 1), the Original TH DR is a snakeeyes and a subsequent dr is a one or ≤ half the modified TH number.
Some quick examples:

A Gun is firing at range six hexes at a squad in open ground. Its base TH number is eight and its modified TH number is also eight. It rolls an original three and there are no TH DRM, so its final TH DR is equal to its original TH DR, three. Since its Final TH DR is < half its modified TH number (eight) the hit is a critical hit.

A Gun is firing at range six hexes at a squad in woods. Its base TH number is eight and its modified TH number is also eight. It rolls an original three with a +1 TH DRM, so its final TH DR is equal to four. Since its Final TH DR is not < half its modified TH number (eight, and the original TH DR is not a two) the hit is not a critical hit.

A Gun is firing at range six hexes at a squad in woods. Its base TH number is eight and its modified TH number is also eight. It rolls an original two with a +1 TH DRM, so its final TH DR is equal to three. Since its Final TH DR is < half its modified TH number the hit is a critical hit. The TH DR is also a two, so the second ITT critical hit criterion might also apply, but since the attack is a critical hit by the first there is no reason to use the second.

A Gun is firing at range six hexes at a squad in stone building. Its base TH number is eight and its modified TH number is also eight. It rolls an original two with a +3 TH DRM, so its final TH DR is equal to five. Since its Final TH DR is not < half its modified TH number the hit is not a critical hit based on the first critical hit criterion. Because the TH DR is an original two, a subsequent dr is made, and if that subsequent dr is one or ≤ half the modified TH number, the hit is critical, and otherwise it is normal. Here the modified TH number is eight, so the dr has to be ≤ four to get a critical.

A 37* Gun is firing at range eighteen hexes at a squad in woods. The particular Gun uses black TH numbers. Its base TH number is six, and its modified TH number is a three (-1 for each * Gun length, Gun caliber ≤ 57mm, Gun caliber ≤ 40mm, all at range eighteen). It rolls an original two with a +1 TH DRM, so its final TH DR is equal to three, a hit. Since its Final TH DR is not < half its modified TH number the hit is not a critical hit based on the first critical hit criterion. Because the TH DR is an original two, a subsequent dr is made, and if that subsequent dr is one or ≤ half the modified TH number, the hit is critical, and otherwise it is normal. In this case the modified TH number is two, so the subsequent dr has to be ≤ one to get a critical.

In order to get the Infantry Target Type critical hit correct, you have to keep your base and modified TH numbers and original and final TH DRs straight and separated. You can't apply the TH DRM to the TH number to get a "final TH number." That won't produce the right answer in many cases.

JR
 
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aneil1234

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The key is remembering that the DRMs calculated are a completely separate entity from what you need to hit the target
that would be the modified to hit number.

As I have taught many people ad nauseam, keep them separate and you will not make a mistake.



And one in very important point to add, not about critical hit calculations but about critical hits in themselves.
Remember that if there are multiple targets or multiple locations random selection is used to determine who gets affected by the critical hit.
So it might not be everyone !!!!

99.9% of the time if you're doing vehicle target type and get a critical hit it affects one vehicle because that's the only vehicle in the hex. Random selection of one, is in fact one (see smart me !!! lol?)
but if there's multiple locations hit, you first determine which location gets the critical hit by random selection, then what target gets hit in location also get selected by random selection.
So a critical hit sometimes is not quite as debilitating as you would think. (Or in my case when I usually roll its usually Yahtzee and everything dies sob ? )
 
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