MMP Roundtable Discussion

pensatl1962

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Yep, we had some OHP class back in the 80's - the US built a whole bunch and we added a couple as well. Same with CF Adams class.
This was one of my favourite books growing up, and I'd visit the US ships when they came into Sydney (and was allowed to go). Got on a Spruance one year and Blue Ridge on another, carriers and others too. Good times...
And soon, some Virginia class SSNs.
 

Kohlenklau

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Note: Long time WW2 history buff. wargamer in some games since the 80's. But I am not an ASL insider, not an old member of this ASL hobby. I now really enjoy it. Going on 2 years now playing via VASL with my opponent/ASL professor/buddy, a 1970's era cardboard "purple box" purchaser. I do not own a single counter. I have purchased scenario packs only.

The Emperor's new clothes?

This youtube video roundtable comes across to me as very hosed up. Turns me off. People talking over each other. Spitting in a bottle. Confused on what is what as the CEO/HMFIC of MMP. Is it this? Is it that? WTF? Contradicting each other on the routing lessons from old salts. My number one note was when he said paraphrasing from RT1 that "nobody ever entered the hobby off of something a TPP did". BS. To me as a data point this is incorrect.

I can bitch and moan all day. Give me a fresh beer.

I was a volunteer modder for a computer wargame where the owners were sllllooowwwww to do anything. I was in a divorced old guy timeframe and would work all damn weekend to try with my feeble skills to develop their game to be more that they planned and programmed. Burned out and walked away.

Anyways, now in this new arena...I see the awesome VASL guys being like no profit volunteer modders taking ASL to places the for profit snail turtles could never imagine.

If MMP had their crap together, VASL would be a pay to play website. Luckily they do not.

Shoot the messenger all you want. I can be booted off GS if you want. Delete this post if you want.

Secure from rant.

Have a great weekend.
 

clubby

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Note: Long time WW2 history buff. wargamer in some games since the 80's. But I am not an ASL insider, not an old member of this ASL hobby. I now really enjoy it. Going on 2 years now playing via VASL with my opponent/ASL professor/buddy, a 1970's era cardboard "purple box" purchaser. I do not own a single counter. I have purchased scenario packs only.

The Emperor's new clothes?

This youtube video roundtable comes across to me as very hosed up. Turns me off. People talking over each other. Spitting in a bottle. Confused on what is what as the CEO/HMFIC of MMP. Is it this? Is it that? WTF? Contradicting each other on the routing lessons from old salts. My number one note was when he said paraphrasing from RT1 that "nobody ever entered the hobby off of something a TPP did". BS. To me as a data point this is incorrect.

I can bitch and moan all day. Give me a fresh beer.

I was a volunteer modder for a computer wargame where the owners were sllllooowwwww to do anything. I was in a divorced old guy timeframe and would work all damn weekend to try with my feeble skills to develop their game to be more that they planned and programmed. Burned out and walked away.

Anyways, now in this new arena...I see the awesome VASL guys being like no profit volunteer modders taking ASL to places the for profit snail turtles could never imagine.

If MMP had their crap together, VASL would be a pay to play website. Luckily they do not.

Shoot the messenger all you want. I can be booted off GS if you want. Delete this post if you want.

Secure from rant.

Have a great weekend.
VASL is regulated by the honor system. I'd check myself before I came on here bragging about not having any.

Rant off as it were.

If you want to tell me to shut my pie hole, do it right here.
 
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wrongway149

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This youtube video roundtable comes across to me as very hosed up. Turns me off. People talking over each other. . My number one note was when he said paraphrasing from RT1 that "nobody ever entered the hobby off of something a TPP did". BS. To me as a data point this is incorrect.
If you know Curt at all, you know he has some very strong opinions and isn't afraid to let them roam free. And that makes for discussions that aren't quite as well organized as your Racco-encased ASL kit.

Speaking of free -- you got what you paid for with the YouTube Roundtable, did you not?

If MMP had their crap together, VASL would be a pay to play website. Luckily they do not.
They have been a successful game company for 25 years now. Many others have come and gone during that time. Why would they mess with the 'secret sauce'?

Maybe someone knows better than I do -- but do other game companies get any $$ if thier games are on VASSAL?
 

Pucksnatcher

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It has been disappointing to view some of the unkind commentary related to the round-table. I found it really interesting to get insights from some of the leaders of this game and would hope that the detractors would not keep Mr. Schilling and others from doing further sessions in the future. The man is taking his time to let us have the inside scoop on things MMP, so if he has certain habits that he chooses to practice in his own home, so be it. Any of us have the option not to watch anything that we find troubling, so just don't tune in....but don't ruin this opportunity for those that enjoy the round-table and are willing to let the moderators do what makes them comfortable or happy in their own lair. It's not about behavior control, but about the exchange of information. Let the round-tables roll!
 

Stewart

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The Emperor's new clothes?

This youtube video roundtable comes across to me as very hosed up. Turns me off. People talking over each other. Spitting in a bottle. Confused on what is what as the CEO/HMFIC of MMP. Is it this? Is it that? WTF? Contradicting each other on the routing lessons from old salts. My number one note was when he said paraphrasing from RT1 that "nobody ever entered the hobby off of something a TPP did". BS. To me as a data point this is incorrect.

Have a great weekend.
Some players have NO ASL products, yet still play. That's ok.

I'm pretty sure that Curt meant Players that are ASLers didn't start by pulling Beyond the Beachhead Off the shelf, and then realize that Hey, I need $4000 more dollars to actually play this....
Considering most of what is required to play the TPP is MMP product, that's the point....nothing is really standalone. Other than BV and the SK world, nothing is stand alone.
In essence, ASL via MMP is the "religion" and the TPP are variations on the main "religion" but rely on the main "religion" to be.

It's a roundtable, kinda meant for open discussion.
Yes, some were quick to interrupt, but that's the growing pains of a discussion group.
Any contradictions were likely to be Clarifications before Curt or others could finish their thought.

And Routing....ROFL...70% of ASL players don't know how to rout. That's a simple fact.
Sad as its simple displacing units without much dice rolling or interruption... Unfortunately, it reflects a set of players that likely don't fully look at the rule and what it is.
I do this with AFV's...its so convoluted it seems...I refer back to them...However, the ROUT PHASE is kinda important.

Most players like the fun of rolling dice and shooting shit...ASL provides that. Misplaying or ignoring a couple rule sections....MEH I didn't pay $25 for these Precision SS dice to not be rolling them as much as possible, so I stay out of the RB whenever I can....

Others take a different approach...both live in different camps on the open Veldt.
 

wrongway149

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And Routing....ROFL...70% of ASL players don't know how to rout. That's a simple fact.
Sad as its simple displacing units without much dice rolling or interruption... Unfortunately, it reflects a set of players that likely don't fully look at the rule and what it is.
~3500 games of ASL - this is still the thing I am most likely to do wrong.
But these broke-azz conscripts aren't going to rally anyway, so we just let it be.
 

von Marwitz

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Maybe someone knows better than I do -- but do other game companies get any $$ if thier games are on VASSAL?
Don't know but I doubt it. They would probably take another approach via Steam or something like it.

I think that some companies forbid their stuff on VASSAL. For example, I believe this to be the case for Warhammer of Games Workshop. If so, it would hardly come as a surprise as Games Workshop is notorious for excessive monetarization - a reason why they don't earn a single dollar from me.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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I found it really interesting to get insights from some of the leaders of this game and would hope that the detractors would not keep Mr. Schilling and others from doing further sessions in the future. The man is taking his time to let us have the inside scoop on things MMP
This.

I did not watch the roundtables. But it does seem to provide some insights and information that was not available before. Therefore, I approve of it.

Nowadays, many should (re-)learn to respect different opinions even if one does not share them.
I for one certainly do not agree with Schilling's view on TPPs, but that would not bring me to tearing apart the idea of this roundtable.

I believe what we are looking at is the fickle balance of monetarization and content creation.

If the content creators (i.e. scenario designers, HASL researchers, VASL code gnomes & map elves, etc.) would have to be paid (beyond a symbolical sum for their efforts), the business would be dead in the very instant.
If the content creators do their work just as a hobby and because they like to do it, this limits the leverage of the monetarization-faction, of course. And this is good.

The monetarization-faction needs to keep their bossing around and spoon-feeding in check towards those who basically work for "free", because otherwise, the content creators will just walk away (or continue to do what they do just outside the reach of the monetarization-faction).

Nevertheless, the monetarization-faction will try to edge forward continuously if allowed to do so. The big fuss about the changing of the open license for D&D stuff by Wizards of the Coast is an example.

Of course, Curt Schilling would most likely prefer that there were no TPPs and MMP had everything under control. Luckily, that is not the case. A monopoly is always bad for the customers. And we see that a monopoly on ASL by MMP is not necessary as the company persists despite TPPs and VASL. We can even observe the positive effects of the non-monopoly state of affairs, as there are more ASL products out there, more new ideas brought in, more access to the hobby than otherwise. IMHO even to the overall benefit of MMP.

von Marwitz
 

Hutch

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As has been stated in the past, the TPP kept ASL alive in the early years. With AH only introducing one new module (8 scenarios) every year (BV 1985, Para 1986, Yanks 1987…), our thirst was quenched by TPP. Granted some were rough photocopies, some hand-drawn, some one-shot deals, but they sufficed. With the MMP acquisition, we started seeing a greater output, and the desktop publishing era, accelerated ASL scenario availability even more. Now we have professional TPP products, whether in the form of modules or packs as well as the top quality we expect from MMP. Yes, to me, TPP was and is a vital aspect in the growth and development of our ASL community.
 
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Robin Reeve

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Weren't MMP a TPP before they were in charge of ASL?
So they should understand the value of TPP boosting interest for the hobby, which will benefit to the official publisher in the end.
As long as the TPP keep within reasonable limits that don't threaten the official publisher, of course.
 

Hutch

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Hence, the banning of the use of official counter art by TPP’s.
 
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von Marwitz

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Hence, the banning of the use of official counter art by TPP’s.
Fair enough. Their artwork, their call.

If the banning of the use of the official counter art had the intention to block TPPs from publishing counters usable for ASL, then this intention has failed though.

CH, HoB, BFP, LFT, Broken Ground have all created their own artwork independently. These days, many of those counters are up to par or close behind in production quality to those of MMP. Some even prefer the colored counters which MMP does not offer (personally, I prefer the "classic" b/w artwork).

The counter art thing is a fine example for the added value that TPP bring to the game in various aspects:
  • colored counters apparently have a market which is - after all these years - not served by MMP.
  • different business models for counters have a place in the market, i.e. not bundling counters with modules and HASLs but selling them per individual sheets as components like Broken Ground does.
I am convinced that MMP has thought about colored counters or selling countersheets as components at some time (they do it with individual geo-boards after all). But they have apparently concluded that it is not worthwhile for them to do so. We can only make guesses about the reasons: Maybe not enough resources, more royalty burdens towards Hasbro, the legal situation in Maryland taxing the keeping of stock, ... Still, if MMP considered that it would benefit them to produce their own colored counters or sell counters as components by the sheet, no one could prevent them from doing so.

In the end, the reasons do not matter. The result is, that now counter art and buisness models for counters exist, that would not be there if it weren't for TPPs.

von Marwitz


P.S.
Although I appear to be critical of some POVs of Curt Schilling, I do acknowledge that he has done a very great deal for the ASL business and hobby as a whole. This must not be forgotten.

Furthermore, while I am a fervent advocate of a "free" VASL, a vicious opponent of "conscription type" business models for the eASLRB etc. (which gratefully are not endorsed by MMP), I am not proposing for MMP to just give things away. There is need of an institution and a "caretaker" for ASL - and this includes the logistics and rules maintenance part which does need and deserve funding.

As such, I have always been willing to "pay the price" (but not "any" price) as around 50 boxed ASL items from AH/MMP not counting all the boxless products in my inventory can bear witness of. Besides this, of course, this inventory also includes a solid amount of fine TPPs.
 
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