MMP no longer releasing games via VASSAL

Jay White

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Hi all,

Take a look at the consimworld MMP thread. Sounds like MMP is not going to release any more VASSAL modules for their games. :OHNO:

Just a guess, but I get the impression they're going to release it on some third party software.
 

Chaim628

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Hi Jay,

That would be bad. The VASSAL enigine is really great (in fact, in many cases it looks better than the real game). But I can understand. Some of the games have updated rules online and then the VASSAL mod for free, so you actually don't need to buy the game anymore, not a very good business strategy...:crosseye:
Now they could also continue with VASSAL and sell the VASSAL mods for a modest price...
 

Jay White

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I've heard people complain about MMP in the past (understatement of the year), but this is the first time I've really realized what poor planning / communications / marketing skills they have.

Yeah yeah, it's a labour of love, etc etc. Regardless, when customers are paying hundreds of dollars / year for their products, it pays to have a better idea of how to communicate business decisions.

I'm a little worried about how / when this new non-VASSAL is going to poke up, given the way they announced this first bit of news.

Suffice it to say that I've somewhat lost faith in MMP to make products that I will be able to play. I'm excited about some of their future products (Line of Battle series, Battalion Combat Series), but I'm turning down that excitement because it might turn out that I have to pay a monthly fee to play it.
 

Jay White

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I take it that you're making fun of me in some way.

I can only assume that you don't rely on online gaming support (VASSAL, Cyberboard) to play your games. A couple of snide remarks from you isn't going to turn this into any kind of meaningful discussion, so there's not a lot more I can say.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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I take it that you're making fun of me in some way.

I can only assume that you don't rely on online gaming support (VASSAL, Cyberboard) to play your games. A couple of snide remarks from you isn't going to turn this into any kind of meaningful discussion, so there's not a lot more I can say.
No, I'm not making comments directed at you; of course, it's stupid of me to comment -here- on things going on elsewhere (CSW); my apologies for acting like I'm the artist who drew your avatar (implying here, they look like cave drawings...)

:salute:
 

Jay White

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No offense, but I totally don't understand the meaning of your posts, especially that last one. :) Seriously. I guess you're trying to be sly or ironic or something, but I'm just not following. Ah well.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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No offense, but I totally don't understand the meaning of your posts, especially that last one. :) Seriously. I guess you're trying to be sly or ironic or something, but I'm just not following. Ah well.
Kewl! I always wanted to be an international man of mystery! :smoke:
 

Michael Dorosh

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Hi Jay,

That would be bad. The VASSAL enigine is really great (in fact, in many cases it looks better than the real game). But I can understand. Some of the games have updated rules online and then the VASSAL mod for free, so you actually don't need to buy the game anymore, not a very good business strategy...:crosseye:
Exactly; even VASL seems to be a bit too much like giving away the milk for free. I'm frankly surprised that scenarios, for example, have been such a staple "industry" for ASL for so long. Look at computer-based games like Combat Mission, where scenarios are simply done for free out in the community, and the format is proprietary to the developers. There is no such thing as for profit TPPs for CM. Any scenarios are automatically done for free and distributed as such. In fact, I always thought it odd that they would not find a way to charge for extra content like that, since there are hundreds if not thousands of user-made scenarios in the community.

MMP tried to do the same by declaring the scenario format proprietary but IIRC failed in a court case with CH - its easier to do such things if you have a unique software coding for your scenarios like CM - and so the proliferation of TPP scenarios, etc. has resulted.

You don't see much in the way of scenarios and variants for other MMP games though, do you? There doesn't seem to be an efficient delivery system any more. Fire & Movement is such a poor quality magazine these days, and Moves shifted format away from wargames.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Hi all,

Take a look at the consimworld MMP thread. Sounds like MMP is not going to release any more VASSAL modules for their games. :OHNO:

Just a guess, but I get the impression they're going to release it on some third party software.
Ummm....I thought this was odd when I first read it. The more recent comments at CSW seem to be more accurate:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@967.YbZdeTr3YLO.198@.ee6d502/70049

Jay, when has this EVER been the case? The only guarantee as far as I see it is that there are people willing to do the work outside of MMP to make it happen.

I guess it's never been the case. I've just assumed that a VASSAL module will be made, and it's happened.

My understanding is that some companies and publishers like Mark Walker do them for first-run sale (i.e. Lock N' Load games, some of which are VASSAL only), but most VASSAL modules are only incidental byproducts, done by third parties. It is true some companies deny permission for these third parties to use the copyrighted artwork in these modules, which is usually a prerequisite to go ahead with such a module.
 

Jay White

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It is true some companies deny permission for these third parties to use the copyrighted artwork in these modules, which is usually a prerequisite to go ahead with such a module.
If you look back a little further in consimworld - MMP, and look into the SCS (Standard Combat Series) forum in consimworld, you will see what the initial hubbub was about. Dean Essig said that he was told not to release any more VASSAL modules for his games. Brian revoked that decision earlier today, though.

A lot of MMP's VASSAL modules are actually created by people quite close to the designer. VASSAL modules are often created to facilitate playtesting, so it's already there and ready, before the game is published.

As an example, Ed Beach said that his latest CGACW module was 95% playtested with VASSAL or CB. Most, if not all, of the latest Gamers products are playtested using VASSAL. I'm playtesting a Gamers product that might not be printed for a year or more, but the VASSAL module is 100% ready to go.

That being said, I don't expect MMP to release VASSAL modules. The initial concern was that they were not -allowing- the release of a new VASSAL module. I suppose people will always be able to scan their game art and make their own modules, which is how it often works. My first questions to Brian were to clarify MMP's stance on VASSAL, since it was obvious that something had changed.

And I'm glad I asked, because
1) They've revoked their decision to stop allowing the production of VASSAL modules, and
2) We've all learned a little more about MMP's future plans w.r.t. online gaming.
 

Michael Dorosh

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If you look back a little further in consimworld - MMP, and look into the SCS (Standard Combat Series) forum in consimworld, you will see what the initial hubbub was about. Dean Essig said that he was told not to release any more VASSAL modules for his games. Brian revoked that decision earlier today, though.

A lot of MMP's VASSAL modules are actually created by people quite close to the designer. VASSAL modules are often created to facilitate playtesting, so it's already there and ready, before the game is published.

As an example, Ed Beach said that his latest CGACW module was 95% playtested with VASSAL or CB. Most, if not all, of the latest Gamers products are playtested using VASSAL. I'm playtesting a Gamers product that might not be printed for a year or more, but the VASSAL module is 100% ready to go.

That being said, I don't expect MMP to release VASSAL modules. The initial concern was that they were not -allowing- the release of a new VASSAL module. I suppose people will always be able to scan their game art and make their own modules, which is how it often works. My first questions to Brian were to clarify MMP's stance on VASSAL, since it was obvious that something had changed.

And I'm glad I asked, because
1) They've revoked their decision to stop allowing the production of VASSAL modules, and
2) We've all learned a little more about MMP's future plans w.r.t. online gaming.
I couldn't find any such conversation, only the stuff I quoted above where someone corrected your misperception about MMP's non-Gamers VASSAL modules. Did you have a direct link to the earlier discussion by Dean Essig?
 

Michael Dorosh

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Excellent, thanks.

Dean Essig: Jim,

We have been asked to stop providing "official" modules for the time being by echelons above my pay grade.

Thanks for your patience regarding this.


Jay White: Dean, can you elaborate at all on what you mean about not providing "official" VASSAL modules for the time being? As someone who plays 95% of his games via VASSAL, any stoppage of VASSAL module creation would make a big difference to me.

If I ever knew a VASSAL module wasn't going to be created for a game, I wouldn't buy it. In fact, there are several MMP games that I've preordered only -after- verifying that a VASSAL module will be created

I've just assumed that VASSAL modules will be created for Gamers products, because Hans has done such a good job of it in the past.


Dean Essig: No, I can't. All I can tell you is that this is a temporary matter and you will like the result.

"Official" means made by the company representatives using the real artwork. Hans is my "official" guy.
 

Jay White

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I couldn't find any such conversation, only the stuff I quoted above where someone corrected your misperception about MMP's non-Gamers VASSAL modules. Did you have a direct link to the earlier discussion by Dean Essig?
I wouldn't call it a misperception - more of a badly worded phrase on my part. I have a very good idea of how VASSAL modules are created and who does them, (especially for MMP), and have helped create them in the past.

After the short conversation in the SCS forum, the conversation with Brian starts here:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?7@231.dfb3ecPsZBb.226@.ee6d502/69839

I'm not sure if you're actually looking for accurate information, Mike, or just trying to shoot holes in what I'm saying. Based on your past record, I'd guess its number (2). Nevertheless, I think it's worthwhile to post these links here for the benefit of others who may want to check the source.

This was my post to Brian:

Question for Brian / Perry...

In the SCS folder, Dean has announced that VASSAL module productions for his games have been put on hold. I have a number of questions about this decision. I hope you're willing to be as forthcoming as possible about this, as it may affect my decision to purchase/preorder MMP games.

I have 6 games on preorder and almost exclusively buy MMP products. I play 95% of them on VASSAL only. This is an important piece of news to me, as I'm sure it is to many other customers.

Specific questions that come to my mind immediately:

1) What is the reason for holding the release of VASSAL modules?

2) Is this an MMP-wide decision, or is it just for The Gamer's products? Or just Bastogne? Will this also affect the release of ASL products (mapboards) into VASL?

3) How long will it be before we see new VASSAL modules released for games? For example, when will Bastogne's VASSAL module be released?

4) Is MMP developing some new system of delivering / producing VASSAL modules? If so, can you elaborate on how this will affect people that play your games using VASSAL modules?

Any other information you'd like to give would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not the only customer who relies on VASSAL to play your games, so I hope you realize the importance in keeping your customers informed.

Thanks,

Jay


This was Brian's response:

I have been mulling on this all day long and I have no good answer for your questions, Jay. Clearly any answer we give will kick off yet another round of "you're doing it wrong" posts.

Our business, remains, our business - to produce board wargames.

Somewhere along the way, some people have interpreted that to mean producing board wargames, online gaming support, online rules, etc., all for the low cost of that board wargame.

Am I sympathetic to your concerns, Jay? Absolutely. But right now I have no information to give you other than a) we're not supporting any online gaming products at this time and b) i've seen a tiny bit of what the future holds and I think it'll be better. Maybe it won't. But I think it will.

I can assure you of only two things, some people will like it, some people won't. Will we lose some customers? Absolutely. I hate it, but it's true - if some people absolutely don't get their way they walk away. Its the nature of any business, I guess.

I can only add if you are expecting an officially provided/supported VASSAL module for GD'42 it will not be forthcoming, at least as far as I am aware. I am very sorry (especially as almost all the elements are printed at this point) if that means you'll cancel your preorder for GD'42, but that's where we are at right now.


And it continues a bit.

Remember, Brian's above statement has been revoked for the moment, so there's no need to panic if you use VASSAL.
 
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Jay White

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For sh*ts and giggles, here's the other relevant parts of the conversation.

Brian:

Folks,

Clearly we need some formal definition of what online support from MMP means. Unfortunately, its after midnight, I go to work in five hours, and it's not coming right now because i'll make some misstatement and people will react to that and this will just become one giant online argument.

I'd suggest we all just hang on, wait a bit until I can huddle with Perry and Curt and make sure we're all on the same page with this, and being as how it is after midnight that's just not going to happen right now.

We do think something great is on the horizon, we knew this discussion would happen eventually but figured it'd be closer to a point where we could release some firm info on the new electronic direction of MMP's owned properties.


Next day, from Brian:

Folks,

After exchanging some emails with Perry/Curt last night/this morning we have decided to continue support of online gaming as we have in the past (ie., the status quo).

I'll be talking to Dean about this decision this morning and I'm sure he'll see what he can do about the new releases.

Somewhere down the horizon online gaming for MMP will be changing, for the better we are certain, but until then there is no reason not to just keep it business as usual.


I don't want to spend the time to find the link, but months ago on consimworld there was an announcement that Curt Shilling's new computer game company (Studio 58 or something like that) bought the electronic rights to MMP's games (except ASL).

Now you can go ahead and make your own assumptions. :)
 
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Jay,

I know I'm hyper-critical of these guys (I reached where you are now with MMP back in 2005 :)), but as soon as Dean Essig was asked not to be a part of any VASSAL module release for upcoming Gamers' titles, there should have been an official statement on MMP's Web site, IMHO.

You give Dean an instruction like this, you know word is going to get out in the wargaming scene. Especially considering how popular VASSAL has become.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Now you can go ahead and make your own assumptions. :)
Too much of that on GS in my opinion but I think we can agree that events will certainly prove to be interesting - thanks for crossposting the conversations for us.
 
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