MMC and SMC

larrymarak

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
303
Reaction score
99
Location
burbank calif
First name
Larry
Country
llUnited States
Any idea why Avalon Hill (or MMP) departed from John Hill's terminology of squads and leaders and called the MultiMan counters and SingleMan counters?
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
1,999
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
Not an official answer. Note and rendered without going into the attic to look at SL-GIANV series of RB.
Guess: It created an easier way (condensed and singular/plural) to address these terms...I think the OP would likewise include half squads, which was a later element, thus addressing why MMC and HS had to become divisions which would then parse out SMC as an extension.
All that said...it is an assumption on my part...and there are far* better SL / ASL historians out there than myself....
 

Ganjulama

Tuco B.P.J. Maria Ramirez
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
2,145
Reaction score
811
Location
Wilmington, NC
Country
llUnited States
Not an official answer. Note and rendered without going into the attic to look at SL-GIANV series of RB.
Guess: It created an easier way (condensed and singular/plural) to address these terms...I think the OP would likewise include half squads, which was a later element, thus addressing why MMC and HS had to become divisions which would then parse out SMC as an extension.
All that said...it is an assumption on my part...and there are far* better SL / ASL historians out there than myself....
You are the Man Andy. Don’t be so modest.
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
1,999
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
Doug,

That is very kind of you. As befits your person.
But I answered from my gut, I do* believe there are folks on this net who might well have a better bead on this than my GI tract. I wasn't trying to be modest mouse...but rather acknowledge some long in the tooth lions out there on this subject. It should yield some interesting insight, and is a useful post by the OP for the history of the game.
Look forward to seeing you at ASLOK if all goes well.

Andy
 

RandyT0001

Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
784
Reaction score
715
Location
Memphis, TN
First name
Cary
Country
llUnited States
Maybe calling the units squads and leaders fit with the name better. It was called 'Squad Leader' and not 'Single Man Counters and Multiman Counters'. You have to admit that last title is a bit awkward and not really conducive for marketing to wargamers.

I honestly do not think that John Hill foresaw nor designed for the later additions to Squad Leader. I think that was more the creation of AH to supply the demand for armor rules to better depict the variety of AFVs in WW2. Others wanted newer, more realistic rules that expanded the system to include other nationalities. Once the rule set became so conflicted by the time of GI:AoV, the push for a rewrite of the rules (Advanced Squad Leader) led AH to use SMC for leaders and heros and MMC for squads, half-squads and crews (infantry and vehicle) using new counter artword to distinguish a squad (3 upright soldiers) from a half squad (two upright soldiers).

I too am not a historian of SL/ASL but there are others.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,525
Reaction score
2,300
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I think It is to be a catch all term. MMM includes squads, half squads and crews. The term squad is used on occasion but only covers one of these.
 

Robin Reeve

φιλέω ASL אני אוהב
Staff member
Moderator
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,367
Reaction score
2,735
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I think It is to be a catch all term. MMC includes squads, half squads and crews. The term squad is used on occasion but only covers one of these.
And SMC includes leaders and heroes.
So, squads and leaders still are in the rules.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
8,985
Reaction score
2,100
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
Technically speaking, in reference to the 1998 Maryland Court ruling, the use of "Squads and Leaders" as a wargame term to define a specific game system by title, is restricted specifically now to products made by Critical Hit, Inc. That ruling has never been overturned or vacated. That does not mean one cannot use those terms to describe various units within a wargame, they just cannot be used to define a wargame by title unless you happen to be Critical Hit.
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,418
Reaction score
2,246
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Any idea why Avalon Hill (or MMP) departed from John Hill's terminology of squads and leaders and called the MultiMan counters and SingleMan counters?
The stated and intended purpose of the ASLRB was to codify everything in the game with very specific language and terminlogy so that it would close loopholes. In the original, "half-squads" weren't part of the original rulebook. They were introduced in COD and the first counters were in GI: Anvil of Victory. So whenever you had a rule in the first rulebook allowing a "squad" to do something, there was a question later on - does that include crews? Does that include half-squads? What if I have 3 scout counters and a sniper? etc. So the term MMC could be used to include everything - squad, half-squad, crew, or equivalent in SMC. Much easier to write the rules that way, fewer special exceptions.
 
Top