Missing counter?

[von Marwitz]

I am currently playing RPT177 Tirailleurs and Antiques.

As the name implies, it features some vintage vehicles, namely a FT-17 with MA AND CMG with B11 having designation FT-17 75BS:



In VASL, I can only find said vehicle without CMG and without B11. Am I missing something?




von Marwitz

 

[asloser]

As per QA, this is a misprint counter from Avalon hill CdG:

French Vehicle Note 1 FT-17 75BS Tankette
The French FT-17 75BS tankette counter (as well
as its Chapter H illustration) should not have a
CMG. Corrected with The General 28.6
countersheet. [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]

 

[von Marwitz]

As per QA, this is a misprint counter from Avalon hill CdG:

French Vehicle Note 1 FT-17 75BS Tankette
The French FT-17 75BS tankette counter (as well
as its Chapter H illustration) should not have a
CMG. Corrected with The General 28.6
countersheet. [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I wonder if the Schwerpunkt guys (scenario designers) would want to keep that MG for the scenario or have it deleted...

von Marwitz

 

[bprobst]

The vehicle should also not have a turret (the gun was mounted in a fixed upper superstructure), but that's a Chapter H problem, not a VASL problem.

 

[von Marwitz]

The vehicle should also not have a turret (the gun was mounted in a fixed upper superstructure), but that's a Chapter H problem, not a VASL problem.

Good spot!



von Marwitz

 

[PresterJohn]

 

[Chas]

It is very possible that more accurate information became available after CGD.

IIRC it was supposed to be a turret but couldnt fit on the hull so had to modify thus couldnt traverse.
Also had a 2-man turret and possibly did have a MG.

 

[von Marwitz]

View attachment 31370

This is only the prototype. I think what we have in ASL is the picture I have posted above.
Which is still without a rotating turret, as @bprobst has pointed out.

von Marwitz

 

[BattleSchool]

Good discussion.

Let me see if I've got these right:

1. Renault 75BS should be NT.

2. Given that it's a tankette, should it be classified as an AGTt, as befitting its role? Or is Tt sufficient for rule purposes? (Beyond the need to retain the Tt designation for D6.2 I'm having a hard time seeing a need for a change in nomenclature.)

3. Because the vehicle had a crew of three, it presumably would not be subject to Recall on a "Baby" Stun, as the FT-17 with 1MT are.

4. Would this AFV also not be entitled to a standard +2 CE DRM in recognition of its top hatch, as opposed to the rear hatches on its turreted brethren?

5. I've looked at roughly a dozen photos of the R 75-BS and have yet to encounter a CMG. The superstructure was cramped enough with two men and 75mm ammo. But if anyone has a photo to the contrary, please share it!

 

[PresterJohn]

There are two different vehicles.
One is labelled the FT17 75 BS, and the other is labelled the FT 75 BS.

 

[bprobst]

There are two different vehicles.
One is labelled the FT17 75 BS, and the other is labelled the FT 75 BS.

Given that the French never called any version of the vehicle "FT17", I don't think we can put much stock in labels. I do not believe that two differing versions of what we now call the "FT17 75 BS" ever entered service.

It is very possible that more accurate information became available after CGD.

I don't believe that there was "new" information post-1990. However, the information is now much more readily accessible. Photos showing the lack of a turret are easy to find now; back then, it would have taken access to relatively-unusual documents and/or special research. Without specific information to the contrary, I can understand why the designers just assumed that every model of the FT17 had some sort of turret.

Also had a 2-man turret and possibly did have a MG.

Well, it had a 0-man turret, because there was no turret. Even if there were 2 men in the upper hull, only one of those men was running the show inside the tank. I doubt very much that French doctrine encouraged the loader to take over command duties should something unfortunate happen to the commander (who probably still did the actual firing of the weapon). Certainly there was no MG -- where would it possibly fit?

2. Given that it's a tankette, should it be classified as an AGTt, as befitting its role? Or is Tt sufficient for rule purposes? (Beyond the need to retain the Tt designation for D6.2 I'm having a hard time seeing a need for a change in nomenclature.)

The Matilda I, classified as a "HTt", shows that some flexibility is permitted in the nomenclature. You're correct, though, that in game terms (as best as I can recall) the only important part is the "Tt", specifically for D6.2 as you note. Indeed, calling it an AGTt might lead to confusion -- if Tt means no Riders, and AG mean Riders are OK, which wins out?

3. Because the vehicle had a crew of three, it presumably would not be subject to Recall on a "Baby" Stun, as the FT-17 with 1MT are.

See my comment above. I think the 1MT restrictions would still be applicable in this case.

4. Would this AFV also not be entitled to a standard +2 CE DRM in recognition of its top hatch, as opposed to the rear hatches on its turreted brethren?

Fair point, I guess.

 

[Blaze]

The vehicle should also not have a turret (the gun was mounted in a fixed upper superstructure), but that's a Chapter H problem, not a VASL problem.

Learn something new every day. I assumed it had a turret. It somewhat still has the same ring, but its turret is fixed. Great catch.

"The idea of cramming even the short barrel 75 mm into the Renault FT only led to design a self-propelled gun solution, in which the gun only traverse, and elevation would be procured by the existing ball mount. Due to the small turret ring which cannot be modified, there was no way to fit the new gun inside a regular, working turret. Instead, a fixed casemate was designed, which rested on the hull itself. The ring was still there to allow the crew to operate, two men, the commander/gunner and a loader. For the first time, the FT was a three-men crew tank, albeit in very cramped conditions". (Tank-afv.com)