Mines and dust

aiabx

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Ok, here's one from the desert. If I wander into a minefield and dust is in effect, does the attack roll get modified by an additional dust roll?
Mines aren't listed among the exceptions to the addition of a dust roll, but it makes so little sense to me that mines would be affected by dust that I have to ask if there's a rule I'm missing or an erratum has been issued at some point.
TIA
-Andy
 

von Marwitz

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I would say that B28.3 states that TEM is NA to minefield attacks:

"B28.3 The TEM of a minefield hex is equal to that of the other terrain in the hex. However, there is no TEM (including FFMO/FFNAM) or FP modifier to a minefield attack [EXC: A-P minefield attacks are resolved with half FP in Deep Snow and a +1 DRM applies]."

Furthermore, the Example at the end of F11.732 states that no DLV applies vs RFP in that hex:

EX: A squad firing with four FP at a range of three hexes during Heavy Dust receives a +2 LOS Hindrance DRM plus a Light Dust DLV Hindrance DRM of 0, +1, +2 or +3. If firing during Very Heavy Dust, the Light Dust DRM is applicable in the same manner but the LOS Hindrance DRM is +3. If firing during Extremely Heavy Dust, the LOS Hindrance DRM is still +3 but the Moderate Dust DRM will be +1, +2 or +3. If the attack has a range of zero (TPBF), only the Light Dust DRM will apply during Heavy or Very Heavy Dust, and only the Moderate Dust DRM will apply during Extremely Heavy Dust. Assuming the squad's attack leaves two Residual FP, if another unit is later attacked by that Residual FP no DLV DRM will apply but FFMO/FFNAM may. Remember that DLV DRM are not applicable to determining if LOS is blocked (11.6).

I don't see how an in-hex hindrance or LV hindrance could affect a minefield attack.

von Marwitz
 
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aiabx

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Excellent. That's just what I was trying to find. Thanks.
 

von Marwitz

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Excellent. That's just what I was trying to find. Thanks.
To be honest, by the letter of the rules the quotes that I provided cannot prove my point because they either speak of TEM (not DLV) and RFP (not a non-Ordnance IFT attack), while F11.71 as written does seem to say that Dust would affect a Minefield attack being a non-Ordnance IFT attack.

My quotes do serve as an indication, though, to what I perceive to be the intention of the rule, i.e. that Minefield attacks are not affected. I would surely play it that way and Oberst von Marwitz would be tempted to bet his Iron Cross 1st Class that this would also be the outcome of a 'Perry Sez' if someone cared to ask him.

von Marwitz
 

Binchois

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It doesn't seem like there's anything to prove here. Dust is classified as a "DLV", which "is treated exactly like a LV Hindrance (E3.1)" according to F11.6.

A LV Hindrance, itself, "is treated exactly like a LOS Hindrance" (with a few caveats; E3.1), which leads us to the definition and effect of Hindrances:

A7.6 ...Any LOS Hindrance (6.7) between the target and firer also lessens the effectiveness of Fire attacks by adding a Hindrance DRM to the IFT DR.​
And there's the rub. Hindrances are more precisely termed "LOS Hindrances," and have no effect when a there's no LOS to be drawn. Mines and the units they attack share the same Location.
 

Russ Isaia

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And LOS Hindrances that do share the same Location (e.g., SMOKE) have "no effect on minefield . . . attacks." A24.2.
 

von Marwitz

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And there's the rub. Hindrances are more precisely termed "LOS Hindrances," and have no effect when a there's no LOS to be drawn. Mines and the units they attack share the same Location.
While there is not exactly a "LOS to be drawn", a Location has LOS to itself (But don't ask me, where that is laid down in the rules. I am sure of it, though.)

And LOS Hindrances that do share the same Location (e.g., SMOKE) have "no effect on minefield . . . attacks." A24.2.
A24.2 deals with SMOKE in particular, not with non-Ordnance IFT attacks as does F11.71

"A24.2 EFFECT: All Direct Fire and on-board mortar fire traced into, through, within, or out of (see 24.8) a SMOKE Location is affected by a Hindrance DRM of +1, +2, or +3 depending upon the type of SMOKE, in addition to any normal TEM/LOS Hindrance effects of that hex. SMOKE has no effect on minefield, OBA, and DC attacks other than the added MF cost to place the DC (or the added difficulty of placing or correcting OBA; C1.62). The application of SMOKE Hindrance DRM is cumulative for each SMOKE counter encountered along the firing unit's LOS. There is no limit to the number of SMOKE counters which can be placed in a hex but the total Hindrance DRM of SMOKE for any one Location can never be more than +3 [EXC: outgoing LOS Hindrance; 24.8]. A LOS traced exactly along a SMOKE hexside (B.6) is affected by that SMOKE. FFMO does not apply to any target shrouded by SMOKE, although FFNAM does."


I think we can't squeeze what we want from the 'rules as written', but A24.2 gives yet another clue how the intention of the rules are meant - and that is that Dust should not affect a Minefield attack, contrary to the wording of F11.71, as we all would sensibly play it.

But if you want to 'kill it', I reckon you would have to file a 'Perry Sez'.

von Marwitz
 

Binchois

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While there is not exactly a "LOS to be drawn", a Location has LOS to itself (But don't ask me, where that is laid down in the rules. I am sure of it, though.)
But I don't think that's relevant because of how Hindrance DRM work (as per A6.7):

A6.7 ...All same-level Direct Fire and spotting attempts traced through (not just into or out of) an effective LOS Hindrance hex are modified by a +1 DRM to either the IFT or To Hit DR, or the Artillery Initial Accuracy dr.​
And even more specifically:

Being in a LOS Hindrance hex [EXC: SMOKE (24.2) and FFE Hindrance (C1.57)] does not hinder the LOS of a firing or target unit; it is only the presence of a LOS Hindrance hex between the same-level firing and target units (regardless of whether either/both are Personnel or vehicles) that forms a LOS Hindrance [EXC: SMOKE and FFE Hindrances are effective Hindrances to LOS even if they are in the viewer or target hexes rather than between them; these Hindrances (24.4 & C1.57), as well as bridge (B6.2), orchard (B14.2), and tower (B34.2) LOS Hindrances and Fog (E3.311) may affect units at different levels].​

...and my sincere apologies for beating a rather dead horse (and for sniping at our esteemed von Marwitz!)
 

Russ Isaia

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While there is not exactly a "LOS to be drawn", a Location has LOS to itself (But don't ask me, where that is laid down in the rules. I am sure of it, though.)



A24.2 deals with SMOKE in particular, not with non-Ordnance IFT attacks as does F11.71

"A24.2 EFFECT: All Direct Fire and on-board mortar fire traced into, through, within, or out of (see 24.8) a SMOKE Location is affected by a Hindrance DRM of +1, +2, or +3 depending upon the type of SMOKE, in addition to any normal TEM/LOS Hindrance effects of that hex. SMOKE has no effect on minefield, OBA, and DC attacks other than the added MF cost to place the DC (or the added difficulty of placing or correcting OBA; C1.62). The application of SMOKE Hindrance DRM is cumulative for each SMOKE counter encountered along the firing unit's LOS. There is no limit to the number of SMOKE counters which can be placed in a hex but the total Hindrance DRM of SMOKE for any one Location can never be more than +3 [EXC: outgoing LOS Hindrance; 24.8]. A LOS traced exactly along a SMOKE hexside (B.6) is affected by that SMOKE. FFMO does not apply to any target shrouded by SMOKE, although FFNAM does."


I think we can't squeeze what we want from the 'rules as written', but A24.2 gives yet another clue how the intention of the rules are meant - and that is that Dust should not affect a Minefield attack, contrary to the wording of F11.71, as we all would sensibly play it.

But if you want to 'kill it', I reckon you would have to file a 'Perry Sez'.

von Marwitz
[Edit: Binchois scooped me by seconds, but having laboriously typed this out, I still had to post!]

I'm not sure you are following the reasoning being proposed (at least what I thought Binchois was proposing). Binchois points out that Dust is indirectly (but expressly) just another LOS Hindrance. Generally, LOS Hindrances only affect fire that passes through, not to or from, the Hindered hex. A6.7. So, if there is a LOS Hindrance in a hex that also has a minefield in that hex, it will not affect that minefield's attack in that hex.

And the exceptions to "through" only? One is SMOKE. So SMOKE Hindrance in a hex would apply to a minefield attacking in the same hex? Yes, but for the specific language of A24.2 excluding its hindering effect (also incidentally a DC attack).

Sadly, the other exception to "through" is FFE Hindrances. Sadly, because they ought to be treated the same as SMOKE and yet there is no similar language in C1.57 to that in A24.2. Maybe a Q&A? None I could immediately find. So I guess FFE Hindrances do affect minefield and DC attacks in the Blast Area, oddly.
 
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