MG TK# vs AFV at close range.

[Honza]

Does the MG TK# increase at close range? I know the AP TK# is increased by close range and was wondering if this applies to MGs as well. Including aircraft MGs.

 

[Binchois]

Yes. The Case D Range Modifications do apply to MG TK attempts.

P.S. An example is included under C7.24 (second EXample).

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Does the MG TK# increase at close range? I know the AP TK# is increased by close range and was wondering if this applies to MGs as well. Including aircraft MGs.

Yes. The Case D Range Modifications do apply to MG TK attempts.

In addition MGs use the "≤ 25mm" row which much is better at short range.

 

[Honza]

Thanks guys. But aircraft MGs are not affected by range. Because for Case D to apply the shot must be non-aerial C7.24.

 

[Sapper_D]

In addition MGs use the "≤ 25mm" row which much is better at short range.

Can anyone point me to where in the RB it explicitly states that MGs use the Case D "≤ 25mm" row of the AP TK table? I've been trying to find this but buggered if I can...it just seems to be implied from the C7.24 example...Thanks in advance.

 

[Richard Weiley]

I don't think it's implied. It's specifically referenced as being applicable.

 

[Sapper_D]

I don't think it's implied. It's specifically referenced as being applicable.

If you can point me to that reference I'd sure appreciate it as I've been scouring the RB for such a specific statement but cant find one.

 

[Richard Weiley]

I was referring to the second C7.24 example where it states that Case D To Kill modifier applies to the MG's Base TK #.

 

[Juan SantaX]

It is in the rules, not only as an example.

7.24 CASE D; RANGE EFFECTS VS AFV: The penetration capability of an AP/APCR/APDS shell decreases as the range increases. The Basic TK# of any non-aerial hit vs an armored Target Facing on the AP or APCR/APDS To Kill Tables is modified according to the range charts on those tables. Range has no effect on the Basic TK# of a HEAT or HE hit, nor vs an unarmored target. See 7.344 for Range effects on FT use.

Take a look at the C7.31 table where you get the kill number of the MGs... AP TO KILL TABLE.

PD: I miss that second example on 7.24... Another errata I have missed!! NO, IT IS IN THE NEXT PAGE !!

 

[Sapper_D]

Thanks Juan. It's pretty clear that the TK# for an MG is 4 from the C7.31 AP To Kill Table. What I'm trying to find out is how do you know what line of the Case D TK# Change table to use for MGs as it doesn't seem to be explicitly stated as far as I can see.

The C7.24 example implies that you should use the <25mm line due to the statement "...Case D (+2) of the To Kill Modifiers apply,..." since the only line to have a +2 modifier is the <25mm line. So from this I can assume that LMGs use this line as that is the MG used in the example. But how do I know that I should also use this line for MMGs and HMGs?

I know I may seem to be pedantic about this but for a rules-set that is so detailed I find this an oversight as it should be explicitly stated what calibre to use for MGs range TK# modifier.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Thanks Juan. It's pretty clear that the TK# for an MG is 4 from the C7.31 AP To Kill Table. What I'm trying to find out is how do you know what line of the Case D TK# Change table to use for MGs as it doesn't seem to be explicitly stated as far as I can see.

The C7.24 example implies that you should use the <25mm line due to the statement "...Case D (+2) of the To Kill Modifiers apply,..." since the only line to have a +2 modifier is the <25mm line. So from this I can assume that LMGs use this line as that is the MG used in the example. But how do I know that I should also use this line for MMGs and HMGs?

I know I may seem to be pedantic about this but for a rules-set that is so detailed I find this an oversight as it should be explicitly stated what calibre to use for MGs range TK# modifier.

A9.61 says to use the C7.31 AP TO KILL TABLE to resolve an attack vs an armored target facing hit by a MG attack. This includes C7.24 CASE D; RANGE EFFECTS VS AFV that includes an example of a MG attack vs an AFV (a MG is a MG, whether Light, Medium or Heavy [EXC: 12.7mm= 50-cal. or aircraft MGs by special case as noted]). There is no need to further spell out specific calibers of ammo such as 9mm or .308, etc. as they are all considered less than 25mm and are classified as MGs collectively.

 

[Sapper_D]

To be precise the C7.24 example given is an LMG attack vs an AFV:

EX: A LMG at Level 2 fires at the rear Target Facing of an adjacent PzKpfw IIA, resulting in a hull hit. The Base TK # is 4. Case A (+1) and Case D (+2) of the To Kill Modifiers apply, but not Case B, yielding a Modified TK # of 7. The AF of the PzKpfw IIA's rear hull armor is 1, yielding a Final TK # of 6.

We are then making an assumption that this same line is used for MMGs and/or HMGs.

To be clear I have no knowledge of what MG calibres were in real life and therefore rely solely on the rules to guide me in cases such as this.

 

[The Purist]

Other than the 12.7mm having its own TK# all other MGs use the "MG" TK#. There is no need to have an (L)MG, (M)MG or (H)MG specific TK# number. As above, and with the noted exceptions, an MG is an MG is an MG. Basic TK# is a 4.

 

[Sapper_D]

Other than the 12.7mm having its own TK# all other MGs use the "MG" TK#. There is no need to have an (L)MG, (M)MG or (H)MG specific TK# number. As above, and with the noted exceptions, an MG is an MG is an MG. Basic TK# is a 4.

The TK# is not in question. The issue is where is it explicitly stated what Case D TK# modifier line should be used for MGs vs AFVs.

 

[The Purist]

Since MGs are </= 25mm you would use that row. If a machine gun was larger than 25mm then one would have a cannon, not a machine gun.

Don't over think this one.

 

[bendizoid]

And a tank Cmg or bmg or AAmg won’t work unless it’s the main armament.

 

[The Purist]

Indeed. We don't have (C)MG, (B)MG or (AA)MG entries either. Just MG.

 

[bendizoid]

Indeed. We don't have (C)MG, (B)MG or (AA)MG entries either. Just MG.

Just trying to keep the confusion to a low roar.

 

[Juan SantaX]

I understand your question now, Sapper. Take a look at that table, there is a line named gun size, that goes up steadily from @MG (thats L, M, and HMG or B, C, AA if you like) to big big guns... I must agree that @MG are not mentioned in the C2.21 rule but to me is clear reading that table, that all MG are included (unless they are under the 12,7 mm group that includes a variety of weapons from 0,50” to 13,2 mm in caliber) and are under 25mm in caliber size.

This rules are crazy. Sometimes they miss things and other times they are over detailed

 

[lightspeed]

Can anyone point me to where in the RB it explicitly states that MGs use the Case D "≤ 25mm" row of the AP TK table? I've been trying to find this but buggered if I can...it just seems to be implied from the C7.24 example...Thanks in advance.

You're right: It's not explicit, but (as Honza says) implicit in the example after C7.24. I cannot really see any harm
in adding a line somewhere spelling it out.

It think a lot of the pushback you are getting is from people who have played a long time, and therefore see the
rule quite clearly. If one takes this from the pov of someone who has never played, it is not obvious. I, for one,
want the rules to be as air tight as possible. This is one instance where a small fix would be a good thing.

jmho.

indy