Meaning of "immobilized"

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
Fellow ASL Enthusiasts:

Rule D 6.5 states that "Passengers/Riders [. . .] may unload from an immobilized vehicle unless that vehicle has already expended more than three-fourths of its MP allotment during the current MPh."

The index defines "immobile" as "any vehicle which is Abandoned, Bogged, Immobilized, Shocked, or Stunned."

D5.34 states: "A Stunned AFV may not fire [. . .], move (inclusive of CA changes) or expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that Player Turn, and immediately Stops (no Stop MP is spent) if moving/in-Motion."

I have a Halftrack with Passengers. The Crew gets Stunned, but the Passengers pass the MC. The Halftrack has not expended 3/4 of it's MP allotment.

Can the Passengers unload?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,062
Reaction score
5,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Fellow ASL Enthusiasts:

Rule D 6.5 states that "Passengers/Riders [. . .] may unload from an immobilized vehicle unless that vehicle has already expended more than three-fourths of its MP allotment during the current MPh."

The index defines "immobile" as "any vehicle which is Abandoned, Bogged, Immobilized, Shocked, or Stunned."

I have a Halftrack with Passengers. The Crew gets Stunned, but the Passengers pass the MC. The Halftrack has not expended 3/4 of it's MP allotment.

Can the Passengers unload?
D5.34 "A Stunned AFV ... may not ... expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that Player Turn." So while the Passengers might be able to spend MF to unload, the vehicle cannot expend the MP necessary.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,008
Reaction score
1,823
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
D5.34 "A Stunned AFV ... may not ... expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that Player Turn." So while the Passengers might be able to spend MF to unload, the vehicle cannot expend the MP necessary.

JR
The passengers could voluntary break and rout out of the vehicle. Might be a good idea if you have been zeroed in by an antitank gun.
 

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,884
Reaction score
1,494
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
In other words If you ht had already expended a MP prior to becoming Stunned/STUNNED in that MPh, the passengers could not unload in that MPh; However if the ht had started the MPh in such a condition and had not expended a MP the passengers could unload as per D6.5.
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
I have a Halftrack with Passengers. The Crew gets Stunned, but the Passengers pass the MC. The Halftrack has not expended 3/4 of it's MP allotment.

Can the Passengers unload?
I would say yes they can under
D6.5 " Likewise, they may unload from an immobilized vehicle unless that vehicle has already expended
more than three-fourths of its MP allotment during the current MPh."

The grey area is whether the "Likewise" means that the previous sentence also applies "Passengers/Riders may leave a vehicle that fired in the preceding PFPh and expended no MP in this MPh, although they could not leave the vehicle's Location during that MPh."

I would have no issue with the unit disembarking as normal and being able to use any remaining MF as they see fit.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,008
Reaction score
1,823
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I would say yes they can under
D6.5 " Likewise, they may unload from an immobilized vehicle unless that vehicle has already expended
more than three-fourths of its MP allotment during the current MPh."

The grey area is whether the "Likewise" means that the previous sentence also applies "Passengers/Riders may leave a vehicle that fired in the preceding PFPh and expended no MP in this MPh, although they could not leave the vehicle's Location during that MPh."

I would have no issue with the unit disembarking as normal and being able to use any remaining MF as they see fit.
If the vehicle has been merely immobilized, you could unload. As it was stunned, you cannot as a stunned vehicle cannot spend MP for any purpose.
 

Jon

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
1,535
Reaction score
125
Location
Albany, Australia
Country
llAustralia
I would say yes they can under
D6.5 " Likewise, they may unload from an immobilized vehicle unless that vehicle has already expended
more than three-fourths of its MP allotment during the current MPh."

The grey area is whether the "Likewise" means that the previous sentence also applies "Passengers/Riders may leave a vehicle that fired in the preceding PFPh and expended no MP in this MPh, although they could not leave the vehicle's Location during that MPh."

I would have no issue with the unit disembarking as normal and being able to use any remaining MF as they see fit.

My answer is no, the passengers may NOT unload in that MPh

All immobilized vehicles are Immobile (index definition of Immobile). However not all Immobile vehicles are immobilized

An immobilized vehicle may spend MP to unload PRC, as long as the inherent crew is not broken/stunned/shocked[D8.5]

An AFV that is Stunned may not expend MP for any reason for the remainder of that player turn and both the inherent crew and the passengers must BU [D5.34]. So Passengers may not unload from that Stunned AFV.

Cheers
Jon
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
The ability of passengers to dismount from a vehicle that has Prep Fired / or is immobilised seems to indicate that the vehicle's inability to expend MP doesn't impact the passenger's ability to dismount.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,056
Reaction score
2,539
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
I think the Prep Fire case is sort of a special case, and an Immobilized vehicle can still expend MP - unlike a stunned/bogged/shocked vehicle.

Q&A that touches on the subject.

D6.5 & D8.1
If a vehicle bogs, can the PRC unload in the same phase when the inherent crew is not broken/stunned/shocked and the vehicle did
not use more than 3/4 of its MP? D8.21 says the unit must end MPh immediately, D8.5 says that as long as the inherent is not
broken/stunned/shocked, MP can be used for non-movement purposes – in the same MPh as the bog or not?
A. No unloading in the turn of bogging.
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
I wouldn't put much faith in such a brief answer.
They way I look at it is that a vehicle doesn't have to spend MP for a unit to disembark, it just costs the vehicle MP if they do.
The subtle difference being is that it is a passive expenditure of MP for the vehicle. So if it does nothing that turn the unit can still get out, the MP are technically used but as the vehicle doesn't move at all then their use is irrelevant.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,062
Reaction score
5,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
They way I look at it is that a vehicle doesn't have to spend MP for a unit to disembark, it just costs the vehicle MP if they do.
The subtle difference being is that it is a passive expenditure of MP for the vehicle. So if it does nothing that turn the unit can still get out, the MP are technically used but as the vehicle doesn't move at all then their use is irrelevant.
D6.5 "A vehicle disembarks Passengers/Riders (without the latter Bailing Out) at a cost of one-fourth (FRU) of its MP allotment." There is no provision for it not to spend MP during unloading. The MP must be spent. If the vehicle cannot cannot (as with the case with bog in the q&a, and as with the stun result), the units may not unload.

JR
 

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,438
Reaction score
2,013
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I don't think that the rules present a notion of "passive MP".
MP are a way to measure time spent for a given task - giving time to Riders or Passengers to unload safely is a task in itself.
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
D6.5 "A vehicle disembarks Passengers/Riders (without the latter Bailing Out) at a cost of one-fourth (FRU) of its MP allotment." There is no provision for it not to spend MP during unloading. The MP must be spent. If the vehicle cannot cannot (as with the case with bog in the q&a, and as with the stun result), the units may not unload.

JR
Cost does not equal spent. And I do not agree that a passenger having MF but a vehicle not being able to spend MP negates them leaving. The Prep Fire provision makes that quite clear albeit with the "time cost" of not being able to leave the location

Yes MP are a way to measure time spent, but so too are MF. The infantry getting out means the carrier has to wait, which is why it loses some time, ergo MP.
If it can't move or doesn't move that still doesn't impact the Passengers ability to spend their time/ MF to leave.
 

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,438
Reaction score
2,013
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
As MP are spent simultaneously with the unloading passengers' MF, they are linked.
As a Stunned/Bogged vehicle may not spend MP, the simultaneous MF expense in not possible.
So the passenger MF are impacted.
Whatever reality arguments can be offered, they won't change the rules' mechanics.
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
71
Country
llAustralia
I believe the rules mechanics support what I am saying.
As per the Prep Fire example.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,056
Reaction score
2,539
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
D6.5 "A vehicle disembarks Passengers/Riders (without the latter Bailing Out) at a cost of one-fourth (FRU) of its MP allotment." There is no provision for it not to spend MP during unloading. The MP must be spent. If the vehicle cannot cannot (as with the case with bog in the q&a, and as with the stun result), the units may not unload.
We also have this table on the Chapter D Divider:

D2 NON-TERRAIN RELATED VEHICULAR MP EXPENDITURES
(Un)Load Infantry: ¼ MP allotment; a loading vehicle cannot have spent any MP (D6.4); ¼ MP per each MF spent by
(un)loading Infantry (D6.4-.5); ESB NA if ≥ 3MF already spent.
 
Top