Maybe it's time for Competitive Tournaments

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Most of us have been to a tournament or at least followed the results of "popular" tournaments.

We see the same 6 people winning every tournament...
We see the same 6 people going 0-5 every tournament...

If it's competition that you seek or just having fun playing some ASL,
Stay tuned and read on with an open mind.

I'll define competition not simply playing the game at a tournament but ACTUALLY being somewhat Competitive!!
The following concept will be generally suited for at least 16+ player participation tournament.

The GENERAL IDEA:
Give players that aren't Masters of the game, a "gamesman" chance of improving/winning/having a good time (equating to maybe a 2-3 WL ratio).
NOTE: If wins and losses mean nothing to you, STOP READING and go on to another thread.)
SPLIT your group of players into Div A and Div B. Both will be seeded in their respective divisions.
BOTH will compete independently. Sort of like PRO and AAA.
There will be placement awards for each division. Keeping this simple division in mind....Let's Proceed.

These are the results of a recent tournament. PAIRINGS and RESULTS to the 3rd round are discussed.
The left side pairings are the ACTUAL tournament and the Right Side are Pairing for the DIV A/B
Column titles:
Rating (should be obvious as to what this means)
Eb- Expected Win
Gain- Expected Gain/Loss for the Loser of the match (Reverse those numbers for the winner) i.e. the first match in Round 1. Player 1982 will look to earn 2 AREA points for a win and lose 30 points for a loss.

21943

I've highlighted "random" Average player participants and compared their Eb (expected win rates in the 2 groupings)
As you see #1467 increases his Eb from 4.9% to a whopping 61.5% by virtue of being in Division B. A similarly rated player, 1453, almost a 40% increase in Eb, and even the lowest rated player nearly doubles his win chance. All this because of simply pairing the players with their competitive "peers".
NOTE: 9 out of 10 of the ACTUAL pairings is over a 70% Eb (win expectation) vs the 3 out of 10 in the DIVISION pairings. Also, the top 3 competitors relative Eb doesn't change very much at all. So, they have high probabilities to win their games as you compare the ACTUAL to DIVISION values. Their game isn't "jeopardized"

Let's go to Round 2 USING the results of the ACTUAL tournament to seed.

21945
Competitor 1507, EVEN still being in the DIV A ranking playing the top 10 players STILL has an increased chance of winning.
Competitor 1467 Maintains about a 55% Eb in both Pairings.
HOWEVER, look at competitor 1344, a whopping 44% Eb AFTER losing his first Round Game. DIVISION B, 2nd round will Pair him "more competitively"

These players will end up winning more games, increasing their AREA ratings and have the opportunity to start playing and ENJOYING more Competitive games as the number of "Fair Tournaments" they go to increases. Instead of being 1-4 most of the time... they will go to 3-2 representing their skills and learning those 2-5 things per game instead of losing on Turn 2 to the Masters of the Tournament. Lower rated players likely will not understand how they lost the game vs the Masters and thereby LOSE the potential to learn to improve.
IMPROVE by playing someone slightly better than you to be able to face that challenge.

Let's go to Round 3 and Final Thoughts.
21946

Let's start with the Masters. Players in the DIV A will still see those HIGH Eb values throughout the tournament (one could argue, AS they should).

Look at the top Bright RED values, for the top 3 players their Eb has ONLY changed by at most 7% even after removing the entire bottom half of rated players from their competition pool. LOOK at the Top Master...1% change in Round 3 and from Rounds 1&2 Only a 6% variance. This DIVISION pairing changes NOTHING for the top players OTHER than potentially giving them slightly more competitive games.
NOW the ENTIRE POINT to this concept that will likely be wholly ignored after this thread is dead or locked....
COMPARE the ACTUAL and DIVISION games in terms of Competitive play

ACTUAL: ALL but one game (57%) are in the mid to high 60%ile even into the 70%ile of Eb IN THE 3RD ROUND!!

DIVISION pairings: From the 3rd best player in the entire competition to the worst rated player in the entire competition AVG a 52.5% Eb value meaning, The 3rd round for most players has the highest competitive value, and hence MEANING and Learning potential for 80% of the games of the tournament.
Players would likely not drop out as often...Win more games as the competition becomes REAL. AND thereby seek to increase the FUN and Excitement (i.e. bring some other players) to this Wonderful game of ours.


One more thing that isn't covered here but you can extrapolate it from even the above data.
MORE players will earn more AREA POINTS thus raising their AREA ratings by DEFAULT using this Pairing method. They will win more games and will go up an average of 50 points over 2 tournaments.

Everyone likes to increase their AREA rating....why not actually give them a chance to????
 

Paul John

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 1970
Messages
704
Reaction score
509
Location
Cincinnati Ohio
Country
llUnited States
Seems like what already happens. Players win and play each other or lose and play each other...
Also, VASL League has promotion and relegation, so something similar is built in there too.
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
The eASL tournament ran on a pairing of adjacent ranks factored by wins and losses in the tournament. So it is already done. The VASL league is not seeded nor does it need to be with the 12-man regional brackets.
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Seems like what already happens. Players win and play each other or lose and play each other...
What already happens?
Competitive play?
Far from it.
The description above, says otherwise.
 

Michael R

Minor Hero
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
4,621
Reaction score
4,162
Location
La Belle Province
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
I don't care about ratings, except for their use in seeding a tournament. The CASLO method was designed like a chess tournament. To me, the effect after the first round is to create your split divisions. The bonus, to me, is that the "unwashed masses" get one round to play with excellent players and perhaps learn from them.
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
I don't care about ratings, except for their use in seeding a tournament. The CASLO method was designed like a chess tournament. To me, the effect after the first round is to create your split divisions. The bonus, to me, is that the "unwashed masses" get one round to play with excellent players and perhaps learn from them.
Not much to learn when the game is over on the Second turn, honestly.
 

SSlunt

Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
436
Reaction score
582
Location
Calgary AB
Country
llCanada
I don't care about ratings, except for their use in seeding a tournament.
This is the whole point is to provide a closer match in each of the rounds.
The latest Canadian tournament had a 1900+ rated player against 1400+rated player. in the first round. The Higher rated player probably did not even break a sweat - with a expected 95% change of winning.
If more evenly ranked players play then they are likely to have a closer and more exciting game. Sure it can be great to play one of the powerful few but the tournament is not as competitive until the last round.
 

Michael R

Minor Hero
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
4,621
Reaction score
4,162
Location
La Belle Province
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
So maybe what you want is the Chicago ASL Open style, except using ratings to seed instead of previous year's performance. Top seed plays second seed, third seed plays fourth seed, etc., in the first round. I don't know for sure how David Goldman pairs in subsequent rounds.
 

Cult.44

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
827
Reaction score
451
Location
Minneapolis
First name
Mark
Country
llUnited States
Yeah, Chicago is reverse seeded. Which is all right but the top players do tend to play each other. I'd just as soon have standard seeding.

It seems to me losing quickly is when flaws in one's game are most clearly exposed. I remember my first ASL Open. I won in the first round and was feeling pretty good, "yeah, that's right, I'm bad, I can hang with these guys." Then Bob Holmstrom ripped me a new one playing FT103 Slava! The weaknesses of my defense were immediately exposed. So I ate humble pie and asked Bob a lot of questions which he gladly answered. (Since he beat me quickly, there was plenty of time!)
 

David Goldman

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Messages
855
Reaction score
515
Location
Chicago, Illinois
Country
llUnited States
The OPEN seeds at the top the order of the previous year's participants who won at least four games. After that it is mostly by ASL Player Ratings, but at my discretion I might move a participant who would other wise potentially be playing a regular opponent in the first or second round.

After the first round, winners play winners based on their accumulated points and their initial seeding. 10 points for a win plus one additional point for each win of a defeated opponent. The computer scoring system does all placements after the first round.
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
The Ratings aren't as cut and dry as one might think.

Chess ratings.
SIMPLE rules....Ratings are based on strategy and skill.

ASL Ratings
COMPLEX rules... Ratings are largely influenced by how much you can remember of the rules.
ie. 2 opponents vs 1.
So, not only is a lower rated player less skilled overall....He also knows far less about the game system.
Not so in Chess.
 

David Goldman

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Messages
855
Reaction score
515
Location
Chicago, Illinois
Country
llUnited States
The OPEN sometimes is said to be the most difficult tournament to repeat as winner. It works because as in any race, the player at the top or one from the back who breaks out of the pack each by consecutive wins, playing in successive rounds against another player with a similar record. It gets tougher and tougher to keep winning.
 

Cult.44

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
827
Reaction score
451
Location
Minneapolis
First name
Mark
Country
llUnited States
The Ratings aren't as cut and dry as one might think.

Chess ratings.
SIMPLE rules....Ratings are based on strategy and skill.

ASL Ratings
COMPLEX rules... Ratings are largely influenced by how much you can remember of the rules.
ie. 2 opponents vs 1.
So, not only is a lower rated player less skilled overall....He also knows far less about the game system.
Not so in Chess.
I would say knowing the rules is a significant part of being a skilled player.
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,288
Reaction score
941
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
Hello!

OK I plowed through all that math......... what I understood anyway........:)

I freely admit and mean no offense, I am still missing the point......... in layman's terms (as in no math), what is your solution? How do you tweak player ratings, cold, going into a tourney? Does everyone who wants to play in a tourney have to be ranked? How does this happen?

Do you want the best players playing each other in every round? So the lets say that the "top" 4 rated players advance to the third round of a 5 round tourney. You want 1 against 2 and 3 against 4 in this round? Heck do you want to start at 1 against 2 and 3 against 4?

Tourneys already are competitive events. Just because the same group of 10-15 (just to pick some numbers) keep winning them all does not make them non-competitive. They may be non-competitive in the sense that I have almost no chance against Steve Pleva, but that does not mean there is not competition at the tourney.

It just goes to show you how good the top players in ASL are. Are we to provide some sort of handicap system for the really good players? At ASLOK (for example), the more you play the tougher your opponent. It is not like the winner of ASLOK plays an easier opponent as the tourney goes on. Pretty certain that is how all tourneys go.

Sure we can use points that one earns for doing this and that, but, in the end, if one if the top players shows up at a Tourney, chances are they are going to be at the top of the ranks at the end, no matter what the points or how those points are derived to start with.

You mentioned, chess. Magnus Carlsen has been chess world champion since 2013. There is a reason for that, he is the best. That is not to say that someone like me could play in the WCC tourney, but other great players sure can and looking at your theory the World Chess Championship is not "competitive" as Magnus has been champion for 9 years. The chess "system" has not fixed that..... (not that it needs fixed).........

SHRUG........ ASL just happens to be a game where the top players are fewer and just that much better than players like me (all of us average players). I am OK with that. When I get a chance to play one of the top players, my goal is to give them a good game and make them earn it.

If I go to a tourney, I personally, do not expect (nor want) some weird system where I am almost guaranteed a .500 record. I want to earn it. If some weird thing happens and I am matched up against, Pleva, Tracy, Cirllo, Hildebrant and Bendis (just to pick people), I guess I am going 0-5 and that does not matter to me.

Peace

Roger
 
Last edited:

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,288
Reaction score
941
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
I would say knowing the rules is a significant part of being a skilled player.
While I agree, only to a point.

I know a lot of players who know the rules pretty well and still are only average (raises hand, though not so much lately)......... Its the application of the rules. I look at articles and thing about that the good players have said to me (or written when I ask for advise) and I think to myself, "I would never have even thought of that"............ Great players know how to get every little thing our of every weapon/MF/MP/modifier, etc.......... not to mention analyzing risk/reward.......

Peace

Roger
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Hello!

OK I plowed through all that math......... what I understood anyway........:)

I freely admit and mean no offense, I am still missing the point......... in layman's terms (as in no math), what is your solution? How do you tweak player ratings, cold, going into a tourney? Does everyone who wants to play in a tourney have to be ranked? How does this happen?

Do you want the best players playing each other in every round? So the lets say that the "top" 4 rated players advance to the third round of a 5 round tourney. You want 1 against 2 and 3 against 4 in this round? Heck do you want to start at 1 against 2 and 3 against 4?

Tourneys already are competitive events. Just because the same group of 10-15 (just to pick some numbers) keep winning them all does not make them non-competitive. They may be non-competitive in the sense that I have almost no chance against Steve Pleva, but that does not mean there is not competition at the tourney.

It just goes to show you how good the top players in ASL are. Are we to provide some sort of handicap system for the really good players? At ASLOK (for example), the more you play the tougher your opponent. It is not like the winner of ASLOK plays an easier opponent as the tourney goes on. Pretty certain that is how all tourneys go.

Sure we can use points that one earns for doing this and that, but, in the end, if one if the top players shows up at a Tourney, chances are they are going to be at the top of the ranks at the end, no matter what the points or how those points are derived to start with.

You mentioned, chess. Magnus Carlsen has been chess world champion since 2013. There is a reason for that, he is the best. That is not to say that someone like me could play in the WCC tourney, but other great players sure can and looking at your theory the World Chess Championship is not "competitive" as Magnus has been champion for 9 years. The chess "system" has not fixed that..... (not that it needs fixed).........

SHRUG........ ASL just happens to be a game where the top players are fewer and just that much better than players like me (all of us average players). I am OK with that. When I get a chance to play one of the top players, my goal is to give them a good game and make them earn it.

If I go to a tourney, I personally, do not expect (nor want) some weird system where I am almost guaranteed a .500 record. I want to earn it. If some weird thing happens and I am matched up against, Pleva, Tracy, Cirllo, Hildebrant and Bendis (just to pick people), I guess I am going 0-5 and that does not matter to me.

Peace

Roger
Thanks.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
While I agree, only to a point.

I know a lot of players who know the rules pretty well and still are only average (raises hand, though not so much lately)......... Its the application of the rules. I look at articles and thing about that the good players have said to me (or written when I ask for advise) and I think to myself, "I would never have even thought of that"............ Great players know how to get every little thing our of every weapon/MF/MP/modifier, etc.......... not to mention analyzing risk/reward.......

Peace

Roger
Again, thanks.
 
Top