Maximum ROF limits

[Kevin Kenneally]

I am lucky to get one or two RoF rolls in a scenario.

But on one occasion, I was playing Tom Gillis (RIP my friend) in a Paddington Bears scenario at the Austin Team Tournament.

He rolled his Tiger to one hex from my Russian 45L AT gun. I had 13 rolls of point blank fire in a row.

After seven rolls, we had a crowd and they began to cheer for me to get snakes, so that I might cause some damage.

Tom eventually won the scenario by the victory conditions, but I truly enjoyed toasting one of his tigers with my FT from point blank.

Oh well. It was a fun day.

 

[Actionjick]

I am lucky to get one or two RoF rolls in a scenario.

But on one occasion, I was playing Tom Gillis (RIP my friend) in a Paddington Bears scenario at the Austin Team Tournament.

He rolled his Tiger to one hex from my Russian 45L AT gun. I had 13 rolls of point blank fire in a row.

After seven rolls, we had a crowd and they began to cheer for me to get snakes, so that I might cause some damage.

Tom eventually won the scenario by the victory conditions, but I truly enjoyed toasting one of his tigers with my FT from point blank.

Oh well. It was a fun day.

It's great stories like this that are one of the strongest cases for keeping ROF the way it is. The game consists of many more attributes than just playing.

I'm sure your friend has a seat of honor at the Great Gaming Table In the Sky. RIP Tom.

 

[Actionjick]

I believe it was (didn't check the actual number), because when dealing with successive DRs, the events are independent, so probabilities do multiply. It's just not always the case! (or, if you use a first die to decide which type of die you'll be casting for the second roll - I had an exercise like this and the students just hated it)

For additions, probabilities don't add if the events are not incompatible (when A AND B is possible). The "real" formula becomes
Pr(A OR B) = Pr(A) + Pr(B) - Pr(A AND B)

If the students didn't learn to love it the Eastern Front is always an option. A remarkable motivator also!

 

[Actionjick]

I believe it was (didn't check the actual number), because when dealing with successive DRs, the events are independent, so probabilities do multiply. It's just not always the case! (or, if you use a first die to decide which type of die you'll be casting for the second roll - I had an exercise like this and the students just hated it)

For additions, probabilities don't add if the events are not incompatible (when A AND B is possible). The "real" formula becomes
Pr(A OR B) = Pr(A) + Pr(B) - Pr(A AND B)

The odds of winning the Powerball Jackpot are 1 in 292.2 million. Somebody's gotta win the Jackpot. Somebody's gotta win the ROF Jackpot.

To quote one of my favorite lines from All Creatures Great and Small " these things happen. "


On an entirely different attempt to alter the course of this thread could you please expound on the word " chiffer "? I came across it while researching The ASL Word of the Day and am not really satisfied with the definitions I found. l realize this is hijacking and if you would like to respond on the Shanghaid thread please do. Thanks!

 

[Old Noob]

"I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots, or only five?"

 

[Futbol]

we could think of ROF in terms of burst fire that is.. short intermittent bursts which is what MGs really do anyway.. I like to imagine it like that, if no rate perhaps the opposing side took good cover thus the gunner stops. If rate then perhaps the gunner still sees or thinks he sees the target. So many things could simulate a high or low ROF

 

[Actionjick]

we could think of ROF in terms of burst fire that is.. short intermittent bursts which is what MGs really do anyway.. I like to imagine it like that, if no rate perhaps the opposing side took good cover thus the gunner stops. If rate then perhaps the gunner still sees or thinks he sees the target. So many things could simulate a high or low ROF

Yes I like to imagine ROF in very similar ways.

 

[Tooz]

Would the game be better if there was a limit to the number of ROF shots. So for example a MMG gave you a maximum of 2 extra shots ( for 3 in total) before being marked first fire. A HMG gave you a maximum of 3 extra shots (for 4 in total) e.t.c

We've all experienced situations where we've either dealt out or suffered what seems like unlimited ROF. There was a pile of troops that were going to win that scenario....and suddenly they're all double broken and wiped out. The fact that inevitably a ROF shot means a low roll compounds the damage. It wouldn't be so bad if you used a third ROF dice.

And it's downright boring when you fire 50mm mortars at people in buildings. Hit, ROF, no effect, rinse and repeat until you get a malf or a crit.

Part of me says yes - games would be more skill and less luck dependant. Another part of me says perhaps the game needs the possibility of such large luck swings to work. Otherwise you might as well play chess.

It may also be heretical, but I believe that a lot of 'precision dice' roll a disproportionate number of snake eyes. More than 1 in 36. I benefit from this as much as I suffer from it, but it does influence things. In +3 TEM and snakes against you is a MC of some kind....firing out at attackers is a KIA.

Am I crazy or a fearless truth seeker?

I would vote against any changes to an already complicated game system. But, house rules can always be used. Some times during playtesting the dice take over the playing and changes must be made in order to better evaluate a scenario's progress. Example: your opponent just rolled his third twelve in a row. Negate the roll and re-roll it as fate is taking over the gameplay and makes the scenario hard to balance. I always say: "It's just a playtest".
During gatherings that last a few days with many opponents to play if fate is getting on someone's nerves and they obviously are not having fun, maybe just call the game and start another one. Fun is what I seek and I often have times when I enjoy a fun scenario despite losing.
Oh yeah, I found that booze helps...

 

[Gordon]

Oh yeah, I found that booze helps...

Truer words ...

 

[olli]

Game played on Tuesday my German 37 Mm AT gun had a few rate rips, the most being 12, immobilising an S-35 and shocking the second it then destroyed a third, then on turn 5 a squad then took out the fourth abandoned S-35 in CC giving the Germans an immediate victory for destroying 3 S-35’s .

 

[chris_olden]

Just seems that ASL dice with symbols - divisional signs e.t.c instead of numbers seem to get more snakeyes than ordinary dice.

If you believe that, purchase real precision dice.
https://www.gammonvillage.com/backgammon-shop/backgammon-accessories/backgammon-precision-dice/
I began using these dice after a particularly awful string of "bad luck" DRs during a
tournament in 2000. I stopped worrying about the dice, and worried about my poor playing instead.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Be very, very careful when using dice with symbols. Once a friend noticed the 'symbol' die he was using didn't have the symbol on the '1' face as he thought; it had the 'symbol' on the '6' face. He was playing as if 'symbol' = '1'. He played part of the game getting
twice as many snake-eyes as he should have and no boxcars.
I checked all my 'souvenir' dice and about half have the symbol on the '1' face, while the rest have the symbol on the '6' face, so this seems to be a common manufacturing option.

 

[zgrose]

One ROF variant that came to mind while reading this thread would be an option to treat ROF as the number of re-rolls you get on your shot. So LMG would be 1 re-roll, MMG 2x, etc... So exchanging the number of shots for a chance at a better roll on your one attack. Totally "breaks" the game, but figured I'd share if anyone was reading and looking for alternatives for their tactical wargame.

Personally, I think the only variant I'd like to try at some point is the ROF die. Would be nice to get rate on a "miss" (crappy IFT roll) and not get rate on that 1KIA, but probably just me.

 

[Stewart]

If you believe that, purchase real precision dice.
https://www.gammonvillage.com/backgammon-shop/backgammon-accessories/backgammon-precision-dice/
I began using these dice after a particularly awful string of "bad luck" DRs during a
tournament in 2000. I stopped worrying about the dice, and worried about my poor playing instead.

Right!!
Learn to rout...
80% of ASLers have no real clue how to rout.
That is 100% under your control.
Don't move into buildings that you are going to be shredded with no real FP to actually ADV Fire out of...
Don't blame the Godddamn dice. ROF?? ROFL I rely on my MG's to Malf each shot....IF I ever get ROF I consider that a FREEBIE.

 

[Stewart]

Game played on Tuesday my German 37 Mm AT gun had a few rate rips, the most being 12, immobilising an S-35 and shocking the second it then destroyed a third, then on turn 5 a squad then took out the fourth abandoned S-35 in CC giving the Germans an immediate victory for destroying 3 S-35’s .

HE should've scouted better.....

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Learn to rout...
80% of ASLers have no real clue how to rout.

You really need to find other opponents if that is your experience.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Right!!
Learn to rout...
80% of ASLers have no real clue how to rout.
That is 100% under your control.
Don't move into buildings that you are going to be shredded with no real FP to actually ADV Fire out of...

The path to ASL Nirvana is when you recognize two things:

1. 1) There are two games being played in every scenario:
   • You v. your opponent
   • You and your opponent v. the game itself
2. Your real Prep Fire Phase actually occurs in D1F and FF (thanks to @bendizoid for teaching me this one)

When you finally get the first one, everyone seems to be nicer and you start see others in a better light, understanding this is a complex game and perfection is nearly impossible to obtain. You begin to understand ASL is a life-long learning process and no game is error free no matter how hard you try, including bad routing errors. When you get the second one, you start to understand why movement is so much more powerful that firepower. You begin to recognize when to fall back (if he can break you in D1F/FF and maneuver to kill you for FTR, it's definitely time to withdraw). You begin to understand why your own routing paths and rally points are so important. You begin to understand pacing of the game.

Someday, perhaps you'll make it. I holdout some small hope you do. -- jim

 

[Old Noob]

The eternal question concerning Rout: "Should I stay or should I go?"

 

[Craig Benn]

The eternal question concerning Rout: "Should I stay or should I go?"

This 'double break' is killin me....if you don't rally set me free...

 

[Vic Provost]

we could think of ROF in terms of burst fire that is.. short intermittent bursts which is what MGs really do anyway.. I like to imagine it like that, if no rate perhaps the opposing side took good cover thus the gunner stops. If rate then perhaps the gunner still sees or thinks he sees the target. So many things could simulate a high or low ROF

Yes indeed, part of the design for effect ROF is.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

I've had ROF of 10 or more shots many times and have had the same against me,
in the past 35 years or so, it's part of the great game ASL is, Vic.