Marco Polo Bridge

[Jwil2020]

I think David was referring to the new Expansion Pack 3 which is on the MMP production schedule for this year.

Ah yes. Read twice. Post once.

 

[Vic Provost]

I believe that the vast majority of ASLers agrees that SK was a good idea and that it is beneficial for the ASL hobby.

The entry cost is low, and without doubt there are ASLers that have been originally been drawn to it via SK and otherwise would not have been.

I also think that the majority of ASLs acknowledge, that SK has developed into a parallel "ASL Light" system, which was not the original plan but apparently has a market that MMP is well advised to serve.

The point of "criticism" that you hint at might be this:
If you start out with SK and feel that you want "more" after SK1 through 3 at the latest, it is probably the more promising path to switch to full ASL rather than to continue the SK system to become ever more complicated by adding more and more aspects of ASL in a half-way manner.
This way SK will lose the simplicity which is one of its main strengths. And the more expansive SK gets, the more difficult the switch to full ASL will eventually become, turning the original point and idea of SK on its head.

That said, of course, everyone should do as he pleases and as it best befits his personal situation.

von Marwitz

Exactly, after SK1, 2 & 3 one would think you are ready for real ASL but obviously many were not ($ Being a major reason) and I can't blame MMP for running with it, it obviously helped the bottom line. My only question is, do you really want to stick with starter kit when there is so much more to enjoy in the full blown system? To each his own, I hope many SK players graduate eventually to the PHD in tactical games, ASL. If they do, maybe we can VASL sometime...

 

[Tater]

Early PTO rocks, much more fun to play the rampaging Japanese in that time frame in 41 - 42 as in 43 on, they become more and more, mainly targets and often need to hide from overwhelming Allied firepower.

No real argument to this point...however ()...the IJF (Imperial Japanese Forces) don't have to hide so much in Manila.

 

[Tater]

Once you get past a couple SK modules, why would you stay with SK when it would not take much (other than the $) to jump into full blown ASL? No OBA, No Night, No Snipers, No Concealment is not real ASL in my world... SK sure has its place but for many, it's time to move into your graduate studies...

Yeah, I've said this before also...

There is the cost but not much else to hinder the move...particularly if one moves to VASL...which overcomes the "OoP" issues as well. I think it is especially true if one is going to start buying SK expansions and HASL that are adding OBA, Night, ect.

 

[Stewart]

Some folks are cool skiing on the blue and green runs whereas others will desire the challenge of the double black diamonds to explore the entire mountain and we know who helps keep the ski resort profitable

They like those runs because they see all of the broken legs and fatalities on the Double Black

What I don't quite understand is the criticism SK gets from the ASL faithful. The implication seems to be that the existence of SK is keeping the full ASL universe from expanding.

15 Modules
6-8 Hasls
10 Annuals
14 Journals
50 scenarios in magazines
15+ Action Packs
WO packs

Yeah...its stunting ASL growth.

However, there is no way to quantitatively determine how many SK guys would be playing full ASL if they had not been given an SK option. One could just as easily argue that SK has indeed accomplished its mission of being an entry point to ASL and that there are more players in the the ranks because of it. I for one can testify that I would not be playing the 'real' game today if I had not first discovered SK.

It has been a tremendous boost to all areas of ASL...sales and players.

 

[Tater]

What I don't quite understand is the criticism SK gets from the ASL faithful.

What I don't understand is why some people get so butt hurt if anyone criticizes SK even just a little bit. The implication seems to be that SK is so perfect it should be untouchable.

The fact is that SK is slowly becoming more and more complex...the modules are taking more and more resources to develop and publish. It is naive to believe that other products are unavoidably taking a back seat to SK. The question is...where is the jumping off point? Personally, I think it was SK4. What they need is an SK5 that takes 1-4 and melds in some of the most important/critical elements missing from Ch. A-D...include some scenarios that can go either SK or ASL...self-contained like SK 1-4.

I definitely think SK HASL is a way overreach.

Oh, and maybe be a little less defensive about SK.

 

[Vic Provost]

What I don't understand is why some people get so butt hurt if anyone criticizes SK even just a little bit. The implication seems to be that SK is so perfect it should be untouchable.

The fact is that SK is slowly becoming more and more complex...the modules are taking more and more resources to develop and publish. It is naive to believe that other products are unavoidably taking a back seat to SK. The question is...where is the jumping off point? Personally, I think it was SK4. What they need is an SK5 that takes 1-4 and melds in some of the most important/critical elements missing from Ch. A-D...include some scenarios that can go either SK or ASL...self-contained like SK 1-4.

I definitely think SK HASL is a way overreach.

Oh, and maybe be a little less defensive about SK.

Totally agree, HASLs should be an ASL thing, not so much a SK thing as now you have to have 2 parallel systems. This will take up more and more resources and smells of the mess the original SL system ended up as, a mess which is why it was redesigned as ASL and consolidated into the one rulebook. This was not what SK was intended to be...

 

[Jwil2020]

What I don't understand is why some people get so butt hurt if anyone criticizes SK even just a little bit. The implication seems to be that SK is so perfect it should be untouchable.

Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I for one am not hurt by criticism of any game system. I blame my poor communication skills if I came across as defensive. Nor do I believe SK is perfect. If I did, I would not have made the switch to ASL. SK, like its famous progenitor, has its obvious blemishes. The same could be said of every wargame I've ever owned and yet enjoyed playing for countless hours.

The point raised that resources spent on expanding the SK line might be robbing Peter to pay Paul may very well be valid. Having absolutely no knowledge of MMP's financial spreadsheet, I am in no position to judge the wisdom of their decision. Evidently, MMP believes they have the necessary resources to support both markets (not to mention their long line of non-ASL products).

From my worm's eye view in the back corner of the peanut gallery, I see MMP's ASL offerings over the last few years as not a dearth but a deluge. The only thing keeping me from buying it all is not the price tag (ok, maybe a little), but the lack of time to play everything rolling off the assembly line. My bookshelf has products still in shrink-wrap.

I think it is safe to say that every SK player is a potential ASL player, whereas the opposite is probably not true. IMHO, I think the two communities can coexist without detriment to the other.

OK. I'm stepping down from my soapbox now.

Game on, my friend.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

others will desire the challenge of the double black diamonds to explore the entire mountain

https://media.tenor.co/images/c6207b7f0ec2dbc7b55d195de154cd09/raw

 

[FrankH.]

Totally agree, HASLs should be an ASL thing, not so much a SK thing as now you have to have 2 parallel systems. This will take up more and more resources and smells of the mess the original SL system ended up as, a mess which is why it was redesigned as ASL and consolidated into the one rulebook. This was not what SK was intended to be...

These comments remind of an idea I had of posting a thread for discussion about if, or not, the concept of ASL is becoming (or has become) bifurcated (or trifucated). And if so, would that be (or is it) a good thing, or not. So I will wait just a bit before posting that thread, just to see how much negativity the idea has (or if it has already been covered in enough detail).

 

[sswann]

To bring in new designers and players as well as new concepts and thoughts you need all of ASL.

 

[Vic Provost]

ASL HASLs
To bring in new designers and players as well as new concepts and thoughts you need all of ASL.

Starter Kit has its place, it just does not need to mirror all future HASLs with its own, come on and
graduate to real ASL if you want HASLs given the proper treatment they deserve.

 

[Paul John]

This will take up more and more resources

I get your point, but this cracks me up. I generally wish y'all would stop putting out great stuff so I would be able to actually play more than 3% of it. (Yah, I could ignore the goodies, but brain problems.)
I remember 25 years ago thinking that even in a nice prison cell supplied with every module that I would never have time to play it all. Now! Holy #*?% there is indeed a deluge!

 

[DVexile]

Restricting to MMP the Scenario Archive has a bit over 1300 ASL scenarios and 108 SK scenarios. (There is some duplication in the ASL count due to updated MMP scenarios being listed more than once). Still we are looking at about 8% of “MMP resources” being “consumed” by SK scenarios.

On the HASL side of things we had DaE as the first and only dedicated SK HASL so far, amongst many ASL HASLs.

We got SaFM and DZ:SME in the past year and expect to get Ponyri and Marco Polo this coming year. SK has the temerity to piggy back on Marco Polo which presumably needed separate rule book writing and separate scenario/CG play testing. This again seems likely to add up to an ongoing less than 10% consumption of “MMP resources” being “consumed” by SK HASL development.

Personally I used SK to ease the ride into full ASL and am not likely to purchase SK modules/HASLs at this point. But it seems hard to claim these days SK is sucking away significant resources from ASL. I do totally get that in the past there were a lot of modules long out of print and seeing a new SK product come up would be frustrating for sure. These days, not so much.

If a more extensive SK line attracts more young players who like to play a lot of different games besides ASL and are too time constrained for full ASL, then I’m all for it. I’m “young” for this board and if even a small fraction of younger SK players decide to take up full ASL when they retire I’ll be happy they are around to play me on VASL from my nursing home.

Piggy-backing an SK version on Marco Polo seems a wise and efficient use of resources in the grand scheme.

 

[PresterJohn]

I agree. If supporting the starter kit side with historical modules generates good will and profit for MMP then go man go.
I know there are players of SK who a.) enjoy SK and b.) think full rules is a bit too much for them. Cool, they may never play full rules but they are part of the "community".

 

[Jwil2020]

Cool, they may never play full rules but they are part of the "community".

Well said.

 

[sswann]

One. HASL map, one set of counters but with rules written on two levels?

 

[Vic Provost]

One. HASL map, one set of counters but with rules written on two levels?

Yep, it is what it is, as long as it gets more players into the hobby,
keeping the HASLs as full ASL only might have motivated some to
go to full ASL but we'll never know. Roll low which ever you play...

 

[Stewart]

Starter Kit has its place, it just does not need to mirror all future HASLs with its own, come on and
graduate to real ASL if you want HASLs given the proper treatment they deserve.

IF the HASL's generate more money than the ASL versions...why would MMP not create them?
SK is their BEST selling item.

 

[Fiedler]

I tried to lay smoke w 4 s9 tanks and got 2 depletion one malf and one smoke. The smoke was removed later by a wind change roll leaving my units exposed in OG.