maps - your comments welcome

[FrankH.]

- -
- I didn't follow your thoughts regarding getting rid of the half-hex Woods around the perimeter. I don't think you can do that unfortunately if you want to be able to use them with the other boards in the system. If there was a way to avoid them - I'd love to hear about it.
Don

Don,

Take boards 21 and 22 for example. Lay 21 to the left and 22 to the right with both boards connecting lengthwise. The right edge of 21 matches the terrain at the left edge of 22. Three roads and eight woods hexes match.

Now slide board 21 down half way, leaving board 22 in its original place. The bottom of 22 (on the left) almost matches the top half of 21 (on the right). The mismatch is caused by the presence of a woods edge half hex in 22T10, 22V10, 21L0, and 21N0. These can be fixed by 4 OG overlays. However, were the woods perimeter hex in 22T10 moved to 22BB10, and from 21N0 to 21F0, the edges would completely match, and you would double the number of board configurations.

The PTO terrain boards have a similar but larger problem due to the palm board edge half hexes.

If in future the protocol for edge terrain were changed just slightly (by moving one woods edge half hex at each quarter board edge), the possible boards combinations would be doubled. Of course scenario designers could use OG overlays, but not everyone would think of that as the most elegant solution.

Is this not something that should have been caught and changed earlier? If so, why not now rather than later?

Frank

 

[Petros]

Frank,
I matched up boards 21 and 22 (could be any boards) like you mentioned above. Yes, very good idea which creates a tremendous number of new geoboard layouts.
Too many boards have been made already with the standard layout, and so revising future geoboards isn't an option because of the need to be compatable with previous boards. Too bad someone didn't consider this sooner I guess.
My recommendation: Lets print a bunch of single-hex Open Ground hex overlays. This would allow us to make so many more layouts.

 

[FrankH.]

Yes Don,

And maybe the board edge OG overlays could be made with some kind of board holder clips, to keep the boards together.

Let's tell all the scenario designers that the number of potential board configurations has roughly doubled.

The offset geo board configuration might dovetail nicely with the specialized half boards, if they ever come into existance.

Frank

 

[Klaus Fischer]

HoB FF! Maps - Sneak Preview

We released a sneak preview of the maps for the FireFights! Issue#1
You can look at them

http://www.heatofbattle.com/ffmaps.htm

as usual comments are welcome :wink:
Enjoy

Klaus

 

[klsmith]

Oooohhh, a snow scene! Prettttty.

This is a very cool idea. You've probably mentioned this before, but are these based on a historical landscape, or are they just variations on geomorphic? Whichever it is, I like the idea of small "accurate" historical terrain.

Ken

 

[syfaulk]

Woohoo! Schweeet.... 8)

This one...

Looks totally cool. What is that? Buna? Cape Gloucester? Saipan? C'mon, tell me, tell me, tell me...

It's always time for gooey PTO goodness,
Scott

 

[Hubbs5]

Firefights

Hey Klaus,

Firefights is one of the best ASL ideas I have ever seen and I having been playing SL/ASL since COI first came out. Wow those mapboards are really awesome and they even double as overlays to boot. I just have one question, where and when can I get a copy?

I am also playing in a one day event in Denver, Co using your boards F4 and F5. The scenario is called "Scorched Earth" designed by Dean McGinley. Wow those boards are totally awesome too, I can't wait to play on them. Keep up the good work, I truly am a fan.

 

[Klaus Fischer]

Scott,

FF6 is "Night Ferry" on Mono Island, the Solomons, November 43
Small, intense, and it is New Zealanders vs Japanese 8)
You just gotta love it

Greg,

wow, all this praising makes me (and I'm sure all of the HoB Team too) blush
As for the production/purchase of FF1, Steve Swann is currently working with the printers to get all the changes from your feedback incorporated and then we're ready to rock
And despite a crucial part of our team deployed in the Desert, we have so many new products in the pipeline... Currently I'm working more on HoB stuff than for my employer
Gee, I really wish I could tell you more....but Jeff and the others would lynch me
Ciao

Klaus

 

[Petros]

Very nice maps guys. The idea of large, half-board overlays is smart :idea: ; moreso if they can be used with existing boards. Overlays are efficient ways to greatly expand terrain options, and though a lot of guys don't like overlays, they'll probably like these because they're more like new boards. If 2 such half-boards can be combined to make one new board - even better. Here's some themes I'd like to see:
- 'cultivated woods' - ala Huertgen Forrest
- RR Station and yard
- large city park
- large boulevards
Interested to see the final product.

 

[Tuomo]

Re: HoB FF! Maps - Sneak Preview

We released a sneak preview of the maps for the FireFights! Issue#1
You can look at them

http://www.heatofbattle.com/ffmaps.htm

as usual comments are welcome

Wow, Klaus. Just freaking Wow.

Just to keep you from getting a big head, though, I think you gotta watch the overlay aspect a bit more, though. Bothers me to see roads and paths just leading off to nowhere on those woods/jungle boards.

But that's just a minor nit from an old elf who hasn't dipped his quill in the map ink for some time. You got some excellent mojo goin' on; keep up the great work.

Tom

 

[Klaus Fischer]

Tom, ma' teacher! :wink:
Thanks for the praise, and thanks for the critics. I know the "overlayability" is an issue and I discussed it at length with Bruce at Consimworld http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@187.cLeoaHoNt2b.2@.ee6f949/181
And I promise we'll take all these suggestions and incorporate them for Issue #2
Tom, it is a shame that you're not putting any maps out lately. I learned a lot from your ideas and tips and I always thought your maps creating unique situations. So, get back to work 8)
Ciao
Klaus

 

[Anonymous]

I'm coming late to the conversation, but I too would like to see some quasi geomorphic boards. I really like the idea of the board that is half water and half land. Side to side they can represent large rivers, or peninsulas/atolls. Next to each other a long stretch of beach or lake shore.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

Large overlays are a great idea. Anything to cover up those massive rivers so I could get some use out of those 2 boards. I generally shy away from overlays in ftf play, but for VASL play they are great.

Double board (20 hexes wide) geo maps (unmounted), depicting theatre specific terrain could alleviate some issues that geo's have with the larger terrain types. Hill groupings could be more natural, the steppes of Russia more accurately portrayed, and cities would look more 'cityish' Nothing bothers me more than seeing the one hex tree locations and lack of buildings in the middle of two city boards.

The city map would likely be the most useful, being able to be used for most cities in eastern Europe and Russia to depict urban campaigns like Kharkov, Kiev, Minsk, Berlin, Bobruisk etc.

I am a BIG fan of HASL maps, and live for CG's. Seeing and playing on the 'real' terrain enhances the imagination aspect of the game.

Scenarios may be the meat and potatoes of ASL, but CG's are the desert....and who doesnt like pie and ice cream

Keep up the good work guys.

 

[Anonymous]

a lot of guys don't like overlays, they'll probably like these because they're more like new boards.

I would like to comment for clarification: The main reason I do not like overlays is that, for me, they represent a lower quality of game materials and they require special storage and sorting due to the many different sizes. Thus they require significant additional work, for me, in order to play a scenario with more than one or two small overlays. Overlays are also unmounted, making them less durable.

Full size standard boards have a much higher quality to them and they are simplier and easier for scenario play. I think the reason HASL boards are well accepted even as unmounted is generally the artwork is extremely well done and they can be folded into predicatable dimensions and stored in the HASL Module box with which they are associated. All of this makes them easy to use and not easy to lose.

Again, perhaps more of a housekeeping thing. :roll: But I think that is important for people as when items do get lost it is not like in the Avalon Hill days when it was very easy to order replacement components of all sizes and cost.

In general the AH inspired idea of "Bookshelf" games makes it easier to store and organize ASL games and modules, although fairly early on people tend to convert to Plano containers and tend to ditch the module boxes.. I do like the quality of the ASLRB 2nd edition, which fits easily on a bookshelf... but I digress.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the best way to handle the housekeeping of overlays, as they increase in number? Put them all in one module box and write "Overlays" on top? Or should that be another topic?

:idea: For those SSR specifying all buildings as stone, all woods as hill (or visa versa), etc., it would be nice if there were 1/2" or 5/8" INFO counters that could be put on the geo mapboards to remind both players (and onlookers) of the status of "SSR terrain". This type of terrain change to me is more acceptable than overlays.

Frank

 

[FrankH.]

Hello again Don,

I had a few more ideas for mapboards.

1) How about a one to two hex wide river that winds around the full board close in to level 1 and / or 2 hills with a few streams draining into the river? There could be an unpaved road or two paralleling the river and a few bridges over the streams, or a ford upstream at the streams. The few streams would connect to other streams on boards 32, 22, and 41 at k, q, and /or w rows. Probably very few or no buildings on one half of the board to represent East Europe, and a few on the other half to represent Italy and Sicily. No need for ponds on this one as this really is a narrow mountain or upland river valley. There could be a few additional gullies or streams draining on the other side of the hills away from teh river (to connect later?).

The river might have to connect to the other river boards 4 hexes wide at on end. Or not. Could be only two hexes wide or could be a stream at the upstream side.

The uses of this board are for river crossing scenarios in Russia and Italy. A similar board could be used for CBI theater.

2) One more idea. An overlay for one of the river boards with a boat launch / harbor /with piers and commerce wharves and warehousing buildings nearby. Could even have a railhead or a railroad bridge nearby. Better yet, have this as a new board.

One question: I noticed that almost all buildings on almost all boards (even non village boards) are within one hex of a road, paved or unpaved. Seems to be that in East Europe and a number of other places there were not so many roads. More likely paths or nothing at all. Or are small residential buildings not represented in ASL and all of these buildings are large commercial or state owned?

Frank H.

 

[Virtual_General]

Maps

Wow, this topic generated a ton of comments. I agree with those who mentioned a need for more PTO maps. Personally, since I now only play using VASL, I'd like to see a cd-rom full of a large variety of maps. I'd buy that, especially if they functioned with VASL's LOS checking.

David

 

[Anonymous]

In response:
Frank, the recommendations you make, especially in regard to the River board, sound good – at least on the surface and in our imagination. The practical question is, and one which I should not fail to mention – what chance has such a board of being printed by MMP? A question that I think I can talk about.
IMO, for any new geoboard to get a greenlight for production going forward, it may need to be in ‘context’ – ie. It may need to be part of something else such as a HSASL or even AP. I’d like to think that it could just be offered on it’s own – say via the P order system and independently sold on the MMP website. I don’t really have a feel for how well something like the P order system for geoboards would be welcomed by the gaming public. I would personally like this to happen for 2 reasons: 1) as a gamer I’d like more variety and hear the same from the best scenario designers, 2) as a designer of maps, I like to paint new boards (it’s fun ).. For something like this to happen, I think MMP would have to offer some already made ala-carte boards (I have six ready) and offer such on the P order system, and see how they are received. As Mrs. Fields says – ‘if you’ll eat em, I’ll make em.'

 

[FrankH.]

Hi Don,

I think I understand your view here. I sense at least a small amount of frustration on your part with how to get new maps published.

My comments represent "ideas" and perhaps "wishlists". I am sure if ideas are pursued many others would and should have input. Perhaps it is all academic, but at least it puts ideas on record, even if it takes years for the input to have a result.

Have you thought of running a dummy P# or a vote from users/players/scenario designers after listing your completed new mapboard concepts (you describe the boards in some detail rather than post their graphics)?

I think new geo mapboards should be mounted. That is key to their quality and versatility. Long run I think geo boards have more life than HASL boards, if a sufficient diversity of them get published.

Just how much does it cost to manufacture a mounted mapboard? What is a realistic minimum production run? Or are these trade secrets?

Could they be put out by a 3rd party, numbering the board as dp1, dp2, etc., or in some manner? If MMP published the board later, apply a MMP geo board number sticker over the 3rd party designation for those who already have the board from earlier? Original quality would have to be equivalent.

New boards might be distributed packed with a bare minimum number of new scenarios, without any ASL player aids or added spice (a bare minimum action pack). I personally think they would sell as long as they are near $5-7 a board, and the board in question were sufficiently well done, possibly unique, not oddball. If the board is good, scenarios will come later. Not to diverge too much, but I think a lot of old scenarios could be redone if better or more appropriate boards were available (using the new boards). That is up to their designers....and probably limited to either those scenarios that are Classics or the dogs that are dead anyway unless totally revamped.

Perhaps the most important feedback and votes you can get would be from scenario designers, from those designers that have the best track records.

Frank

 

[Pitman]

I would very much like MMP to P# a mapboard and see how it does, as an experiment. If it does well, this could help spawn a renaissance of ASL map art.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I would very much like MMP to P# a mapboard and see how it does, as an experiment. If it does well, this could help spawn a renaissance of ASL map art.

I wonder if they have ever considered this.

VASL has opened up lots of opportunities for new maps, but I'm not certain whether anyone is actually using the custom ones that are available.