maps - your comments welcome

[Petros]

Guys,
Great forum! I’d like to make some comments and ask some questions.

I’m the guy that MMP currently contracts with to hand-paint geoboards and occasionally a HASL map or two. Projects which I’ve finished but which you haven’t seen yet include:
- Valor of the Guards HASL
- Normandy theme geoboards (x3) – ‘multi-geomorphic’
- Russian theme geoboards (x3)
Projects that I’m in progress painting include:
- Ponyri (Kursk theme HASL)
Projects that I’ve sketched and want to do:
- Korean theme geoboards
- Ruined city geoboards – ‘multi-geomorphic’

So much for my comments. I’d like yours too. Your comments on geoboards are needed including: areas of improvement, new themes, etc.
Your comments on ASL mapboards in general are welcomed, including:
- Overlays
- Computer vs. handpainted maps
- Do we need other boards or should we stop making new ones
- Would you buy them ala carte or only in a package release (ie. AP)

Lay it on brothers

 

[pryoung]

- Normandy theme geoboards (x3) – ‘multi-geomorphic’
- Russian theme geoboards (x3)

Projects that I’m in progress painting include:
- Ponyri (Kursk theme HASL)
Projects that I’ve sketched and want to do:
- Korean theme geoboards
- Ruined city geoboards – ‘multi-geomorphic’

Sound great, the more the merrier. I like the idea of boards intended to reflect certain theatres. While that may limit their applicability to other parts of the war, they become much more effective for what they represent, lessening the need for terrain SSRs, overlays, etc.

So much for my comments. I’d like yours too. Your comments on geoboards are needed including: areas of improvement, new themes, etc.
Your comments on ASL mapboards in general are welcomed, including:
- Overlays

I personally like them okay, don't consider them a big hindrance to playing (ie, they won't keep me from playing a scenario), but the more boards we have, the less necessary they'll be.

- Do we need other boards or should we stop making new ones

See the above response. Keep 'em coming!

- Would you buy them ala carte or only in a package release (ie. AP)

Would prefer a package. The joy of a new board is not as great if there isn't something ready-made to use it.

Keep up the good work!

Pete

 

[chris olden]

re:New Boards

Howdy Don,
Do you really need my opinion???!!!
Chris Olden

 

[Doug Kirk]

maps

More boards! More boards!

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi Don-
I'm looking forward to more of your artwork, the job you did on the OVHS map is awesome!


Scott

 

[Matt Romey]

One of the perks of being in the same ASL club with Don is seeing him at get-togethers and getting to see advanced copies of his work. The VotG map is great. The truly exciting project, though, is the (multi)-geomorphic Normandy hedgerow maps. Not only are they geomorphic on each board edge, but also in the middle (i.e. along hexrow Q or whatever that middle hexrow is). This doubles (?) the permutations available with each set of maps. With close terrain like bocage, it creates some fantasticly variable board configurations.. you could literally create dozens of configurations with a few boards.

Since DASL boards are all we have at the moment to adequately represent bocage terrain, I think these boards are a must have. I can only assume that MMP will jump on the chance once a spot opens up in their production schedule.

You're doing some great work, Don. Keep it up!

Matt Romey

 

[Jeff Leslie]

Boards, Boards, and more Boards!

I've been looking at boards 1-4 for over 25 years!

Give me more boards!

Your artwork is outstanding, keep it up.

I can only assume that MMP will jump on the chance once a spot opens up in their production schedule.

You mean they actually have a production schedule? (AoO)

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[Anonymous]

Boards

I would rather have access to a "MapBoard Pack" than buying them indivualy.

A set of mapboard centered around a specific theater of operations could be developed and offered. As a designer, I would like them.

It could be tried using the "P" number system to determine the interest level of the ASL world. I could even understand a higher than normal P # since mounted mapboards are expensive to produce.

Steve 8)

 

[Pitman]

Boards Boards Boards

Since I have gotten into scenario design, I am a big, big, big proponent of more, more, more boards. There have been so many times when I have read a historical action, thought about trying to do a scenario based on it, and been defeated by the lack of boards that can even approximate the situation.

There are many board needs. Also, many, many overlay needs.

Here are some:

1. More PTO boards! This is far and way the most pressing need.
2. More boards without buildings.
3. More boards with NARROW rivers.
4. Quasi-Geomorphic Mapboards--like High Ground!--that can replicate larger terrain features.
5. More hilly terrain, especially VERY high hills and or very large hills.
6. Rubbled Cities and Villages. Much fighting took place in totally destroyed towns.
7. More narrow street, very crowded urban/village terrain.
8. A board(s) with City Walls.
9. A board with an old (vauban) fortification.
10. A city board with DOCKS. VERY important.
11. Boards with terrain like rivers, streams, etc., that CURVE, even off board (an overlay can be used to continue onto another board, if needed).
12. POLDER terrain.
13. Vegetation Free Rocky Terrain that can represent Iwo Jima, Attu, etc. Could also be used for desert scenarios, middle east scenarios, etc. I have a whole series of Attu scenarios I'd like to design!!!!

Overlays

1. HILL OVERLAYS! ALSO, OVERLAYS THAT MODIFY EXISTING HILLS or other features. Every overlay now is basically overlaid on clear terrain! There are no overlays that modify current hills, forests, etc. This is a big problem! Want to "extend" a hill a little bit. Rough Ruck!
2. More large, cover up an entire terrain feature type overlays.
3. River overlays.


I saw the boards for the next few Action Packs, and don't get me wrong, they are very nice, but they don't address what I see as the real mapboard needs in the system.

I DEFINITELY WOULD PAY REAL SOLID MONEY for mapboards on their own. As fast as you could churn them out, I would buy them.

 

[LtDan]

I second the motion for the need for an additional canal / narrow stream boards. We do have a couple but I'd like to see one that would be used in doing canal crossing battles in the invasion of France / Belgium. Ideally they would have open terrain or a small village on one side (rather than the large town on board 24 (? don't have my boards handy).

 

[FourDeuceMF]

Being keen on the Korea project, the hill boards are exciting.

Oh, Don...got the fax, then got caught up in end of year reviews/counseling. Drop me a line, we can talk!

Overlays on a clear acetate would be mondo cool, by the way 8)

 

[Petros]

Thanks for the good comments, compliments, etc. Your enthusiasm keeps me going on this. (Chris – sorry to not see you at WCM. Scott – I can’t claim authorship on OVHS). But really, the main purpose of my post was to:
- get solid feedback and critique on the map artwork so that I can get it better next time. Negative is OK also.
- get your ideas for both my new ideas so that I’m not going down a blind alley
- get your ideas for new maps (which often beget new projects) Geoboard or HASL
Without the above, I work in a vacuum of sorts, not sure if I’ve hit the mark and not sure if what I’m planning to do will hit either. It’s a small ASL world and your comments matter. Pitman’s comments about new ideas (battle-scarred terrain, PTO boards, etc.), I key in on and agree with. If a general consensus is found, or if at least common threads of ‘what we want’ from ASL are consolidated in general, that helps guys like me to prepare the battlefields, and others the scenarios. I’ve learned that making these maps is kinda like the movie Field of Dreams; ‘build it – and they’ll come’. Paint a map, and someone finds some scenarios / CGs / historical analysis for it…

I’ll kick off another matter. Are HASLs maps/scenarios less interesting or fun to play in general than geoboards with smaller actions? Is it still worthwhile to do HASLs – or are we OK with just playing with more geoboards with their small punchy scenarios? It matters to me in part because I’ve got a major tiger by the tail with a humongous map of Ponyri (Kursk) in development, but I’m not sure if it will be well received. Feedback needed. Thanks!

 

[Pitman]

It is interesting to note that at ASLOK, Winter Offensive, etc., even in the "pickup games," the vast majority of scenarios played are on geomorphic mapboards.

 

[LtDan]

I love the HASL concept... you can buy the module with the map if you are interested in the battle, otherwise, pass. I do like the concept of doing historlical campaign games on the geomorphic boards too though, even if overlays are required to "fix" the terrain. Although they had some problems I really enjoyed playing Cemetary Hill and Ruweisat Ridge campaigns. I'd like to see that approach taken more often.

My main problem with the historical maps is, due to their complexity, it is sometimes tough to judge LOS at a glance. Especially when you start putting in slopes, etc. That may be why people don't play with these at tournaments-- it's too much of a disadvantage to not be able to eyeball LOS. It's just more comfortable to play on a board you may have played on before.

As for HASL map quality in general I've been pretty happy with them. The NG map was a bit confusing with the elevation lines outside of the hexes, and I haven't really played on OWT yet so I can't comment on them. I really liked the Baraque de Fraiture Parker's Crossroads map. That has very clear terrain on it, and pretty much every scenario I played on it was good.

 

[rryeates]

Maps/HASL

Don,

On the maps/boards more is always good. Last fall I worked up a bunch of east front scenarios. I looked through the boards and collected those that could work for southern Russia. I think I did about 12-16 scenarios depicting a variety of actions. I found that I was forced to recycle boards a fair amount. 3-4 more boards with appropriate terrain would have been nice.

I also did up a number of Sicily scenarios a few years back and found a real dirth of good boards which caused me to use a bunch of overlays which got pretty negative reactions from some individuals.

I like the idea of partially modular boards where 1 side would mate with only a couple of boards and the other would mate with all of them. Another possibility would be to produce a set of unmount geo maps about 2x the area of the existing maps (20 hexes x 32 hexes or so). The larger area would allow for less choppy terrain and still offer the geomorphism that allows the flexibility we have all come to love.

HASL vs Scenarios

I like scenarios and they are great for tourneys/ASL get togethers which I also enjoy, but when I am playing casually I really like CGs. To be honest, the bigger the better. I understand at least one of the CGs in the upcoming Red October module will link with the Red Barrickades map to make one huge CG. That will be a must play for me.

I also like the HASL scenarios on the CG maps. I really like the idea playing on a map that fairly reasonably represents the ground that the action was actually fought on. Gaming is really an off-shoot of my interest in history rather than vise-versa.

I am sure your Ponryi efforts will be time well spent. I for one can't wait (hopefully it will not be as long in coming as the Central Stalingrad module). My favorite time in the war is probably late 42 through 43. Lots of neat east front action going on at that time, Sicily, etc.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Italian HASL?

Hi-
Is there an Italian non-desert HASL in the works? IE east front? This would be so cool. Like Stonne 1940 from CH!, OVHS from MMP has restored my faith in them, plus now more then ever, I'm looking forward to thier future projects.

Scott
MP's lead the way!
Rangers are high drag, low speed!

 

[Matt Shostak]

no shadows please

My first thought is to stop painting boards with shadows around the
buildings. I often find this a point of contention when measuring
LOS. It'll clip the shadow, but not the building depiction itself, but sometimes
it's hard to tell.

Aside from that, I like HASLs but prefer to use geo boards for most things,
although I am enjoying RB right now. I think there's a place for each, but
I'd like to see more mini-campaigns along the lines of the Broadway to
Prokhorovka thing from J3.

 

[Petros]

In very brief response (don’t have much time here):
-Matt Romey: thanks for the comments on VotG and Normandy boards. I respect your thought immensely.
- Randy Yeates: Yes, I agree that there isn’t enough Russian front looking boards – that’s exactly why I recently did 3 boards with a Russian feel (one even has a elaborate little wooden church). Pete Shelling is doing some scenarios for them – you ought to talk to him about your scenarios.
- Matt Shostak: Agree with you about bad shadows, but I think you’re probably looking at a computerized map (OVHS). My maps (ABTF, BRT, KR, VotG, boards 44-52, numerous overlays, and hopefully to be published boards 53-58) are hand-painted only. Computerized maps and counters use shadowing I’ve noticed, and are designed to suggest 3 dimensions. I don’t care for their use personally – I think shadows not only look kinda cheesy, but mess up LOS issues. But don’t get me going on computers vs. paint.

 

[TankDawg]

Don,

I too would LOVE to see a map with a stream that is one hex wide. Or a small 2 hex wide river.


Holst - Give me a break!!! MP's dont lead nothing. They direct traffic and distract most us combat arms guys from our missions.

:lol:

 

[LtDan]

Don, isn't there a board coming with a whole bunch of wooden buildings on it.... something that could be used for the workers barracks outside of Stalingrad? Or maybe this is already out and I don't have it?

I have to say I like the hand-painted boards too, so keep up the good work Don!