Manila questions

Andy Bagley

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I feel like I'm being stupid, but can someone clarify CG9 for me please? It allows both sides to set up infantry concealed “…if out of enemy LOS. Otherwise A12.12 applies normally.” But you won’t know what is out of LOS until both sides have set up, so that’s pretty much A12.12 anyway. Of course, you can conceal as much as you want by purchasing FPPs and then sufficient “?” counters from this, but why then does CG9 say “”?” purchased in the RePh are intended mainly for use as dummies” when there’s this other very obvious purpose too?
 

ASLSARGE

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I feel like I'm being stupid, but can someone clarify CG9 for me please? It allows both sides to set up infantry concealed “…if out of enemy LOS. Otherwise A12.12 applies normally.” But you won’t know what is out of LOS until both sides have set up, so that’s pretty much A12.12 anyway. Of course, you can conceal as much as you want by purchasing FPPs and then sufficient “?” counters from this, but why then does CG9 say “”?” purchased in the RePh are intended mainly for use as dummies” when there’s this other very obvious purpose too?
Please look at CG15 in Red Barricades. Says almost the exact same thing, yet no one seems to have questioned that CG rule in thirty years. That is exactly where I got the text for CG9. It just is what it is....an established HASL rule. Never hurts to ask.
 

buser333

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I definitely see Andy's confusion, because now I share it as well. The RB rule you quote says "regardless of LOS."
 

ASLSARGE

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I definitely see Andy's confusion, because now I share it as well. The RB rule you quote says "regardless of LOS."
Is there anything in CG9 that is incorrect, or misleading? If not, then COWTRA.
 

Andy Bagley

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Is there anything in CG9 that is incorrect, or misleading? If not, then COWTRA.
As buser333 says, big difference between CG9 and the equivalent RB rule. Can certainly COWTRA, just means ignoring the last sentence (which is a comment rather than a rule anyway). In fact, could the whole rule CG9 simply be re-written as "CG9. CONCEALMENT: A12.12 and A12.34 apply normally."?
 

klasmalmstrom

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Here's is my take on this...

CG9. CONCEALMENT: All Infantry (and their possessed Weapon) setting up in Concealment Terrain may always be set up concealed if out of enemy LOS. Otherwise, A12.12 applies normally. Other eligible units may be concealed prior to the opponent viewing the setup. “?” purchased in the RePh are intended mainly for use as dummies.

CG15. CONCEALMENT: All Infantry (and their possessed Weapon) setting up in Concealment Terrain may do so concealed, regardless of LOS. Such “?” need not be purchased; i.e., they are placed freely. Otherwise, A12.12 and A12.34 apply. The side setting up first may conceal all eligible units before the other side views its setup; likewise, the side setting up second may conceal all eligible units before his opponent views that setup. “?” purchased in the RePh (11.6121) are intended mainly for use as dummies.

The red text is what differs between Manila and Red Barricades. The blue text in CG15 is, IMO, really not needed, just an extra clarification. The "general" part about "Otherwise, A12.12 apply." is present in both SSR.

The green text says - again IMO - the same thing....just in different words.

So the main difference is the red text. Lets say I set up first, and my opponent has Isolated units left onboard from the previous CG scenario. If I set them up in Concealment Terrain in LOS of those Isolated units, I don't get Concealment for free - I would need to use purchased "?" counters. In Red Barricades I could set them up Concealed "for free".

Besides this, any unit I set up outside of the Isolated units' LOS I can place "?" on - per the green text. Then my opponent does his setup, with the same restrictions.

So, technically, I believe that "setting up in Concealment Terrain" in the first sentence of CG9 might be somewhat superfluous, since getting a free "?" if setting up out of LOS applies to all units.

Of course, I could be missing something...
 

Andy Bagley

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Many thanks to Klas for this comprehensive response, which follows a conversation we had. Just to clarify further, "eligible units" will include those not in Concealment Terrain but out of enemy LOS.

So I agree with Klas that the words "setting up in Concealment Terrain" are probably superfluous. It's a personal thing, but I also don't like the last sentence: "“?” purchased in the RePh are intended mainly for use as dummies". This should be true in Red Barricades, but is less so in Manila because both sides may wish to purchase "?" to conceal their units that start in enemy LOS. But this isn't a rule as such, so it doesn't really matter.
 

afgur

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Hello All
SF 10.3 states Restricted Roads are shown on map by "a narrower, cobblestone road depiction". No reference to Paved Roads, so I believe they are not. Correct?

Thanks
Alan
 

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SF20.6149 JAPANESE CREWS: In each setup area, each crew in excess of the total number of Guns plus Japanese ATR/MMG/HMG (including .50-cal) is replaced by a 1-3-7 HS, which then Recombines per 20.6121.

Does this apply only to Infantry crews?

Including 1-2-7s that resulted from 2-2-8s striping...then breaking?

Assuming yes to both...just want to confirm.
 

cwillmer

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SF20.6143 American SW and IDLE Day: If a CG date results in an IDLE Day, no scenario is generated for that CG Day, steps 20.613-623 are then repeated (SF20.6231). 20.613 creates a NEW CG Day, does 20.6143 apply given there was no preceding scenario?
 

ASLSARGE

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SF20.6149 JAPANESE CREWS: In each setup area, each crew in excess of the total number of Guns plus Japanese ATR/MMG/HMG (including .50-cal) is replaced by a 1-3-7 HS, which then Recombines per 20.6121.

Does this apply only to Infantry crews?

Including 1-2-7s that resulted from 2-2-8s striping...then breaking?

Assuming yes to both...just want to confirm.
You are correct.
 

JimWhite

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SF20.6143 American SW and IDLE Day: If a CG date results in an IDLE Day, no scenario is generated for that CG Day, steps 20.613-623 are then repeated (SF20.6231). 20.613 creates a NEW CG Day, does 20.6143 apply given there was no preceding scenario?
Anybody have any thoughts or ideas on this question?
 

ASLSARGE

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Anybody have any thoughts or ideas on this question?
I've been working all holiday weekend, so just not have a chance to look at this. Not sure why the confusion, but will try to address it as I interpret it. You have already gone through steps 20.613 - 20.6231, and it generated an Idle Day. So, you repeat steps 20.613 - 20.6231 to see if a scenario is generated for the next day. Included in those repeat steps is 20.6143.....just like 20.6149. You have already addressed these fully (I assume) prior to the Idle Day being generated, so there should be nothing to do in those steps when you try again to generate a scenario. If there is nothing to do in those steps, then you just skip over them. Or, am I just missing something in your intended question.
 

cwillmer

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I've been working all holiday weekend, so just not have a chance to look at this. Not sure why the confusion, but will try to address it as I interpret it. You have already gone through steps 20.613 - 20.6231, and it generated an Idle Day. So, you repeat steps 20.613 - 20.6231 to see if a scenario is generated for the next day. Included in those repeat steps is 20.6143.....just like 20.6149. You have already addressed these fully (I assume) prior to the Idle Day being generated, so there should be nothing to do in those steps when you try again to generate a scenario. If there is nothing to do in those steps, then you just skip over them. Or, am I just missing something in your intended question.
Some more details:

20.613 starts 17 Feb
6143 and 6149 are done for the units in play at the end of 16 Feb
RG buys are done for 17 Feb
17 Feb turns out to be an IDLE day. No scenario is generated
Go back to 613
Its now 18 Feb

Do 6143 and 6149 apply since no scenario was generated for 17 Feb?
 

ASLSARGE

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Some more details:

20.613 starts 17 Feb
6143 and 6149 are done for the units in play at the end of 16 Feb
RG buys are done for 17 Feb
17 Feb turns out to be an IDLE day. No scenario is generated
Go back to 613
Its now 18 Feb

Do 6143 and 6149 apply since no scenario was generated for 17 Feb?
You have already completed those steps for the Idle Day, so....no they do not apply since there should be nothing to do regarding those steps whether you activate the next scenario or if it is another Idle day.
 

klasmalmstrom

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SF20.6143 American SW and IDLE Day: If a CG date results in an IDLE Day, no scenario is generated for that CG Day, steps 20.613-623 are then repeated (SF20.6231). 20.613 creates a NEW CG Day, does 20.6143 apply given there was no preceding scenario?
Since the rule says "from the preceding scenario" - I am pretty sure one does not do this Step after an Idle Date.
 
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Scenario SF9:
I guess the Japanese vehicules and the two INF guns enter on Turn 3.
Given the artwork of the scenario sheet, that doesn't seem obvious.
Please could you confirm?
Thanks.
 

ASLSARGE

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Yes. The INF guns, vehicles, and the infantry units listed below them all enter turn 3.
 
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