Lowered IPC when using CX

[Koniak]

Hi,

When looking at http://www.vftt.co.uk/mortars.htm it said that the IPC of a leader together with an MMC is only 2 when using CX. Ie the MMC IPC is lowered from 3 to 2 and leaders IPC is lowered from 1 to 0. Is this really correct? :shock:

I've assumed that using CX, the MMC IPC is lowered by one but still increased by one by the leader resultning in a total IPC of 3. :?

Please shine som light on this.

/Mike

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Hi,

When looking at http://www.vftt.co.uk/mortars.htm it said that the IPC of a leader together with an MMC is only 2 when using CX. Ie the MMC IPC is lowered from 3 to 2 and leaders IPC is lowered from 1 to 0. Is this really correct? :shock:

I've assumed that using CX, the MMC IPC is lowered by one but still increased by one by the leader resultning in a total IPC of 3. :?

Please shine som light on this.
/Mike

I'll try to shine some light.

I think that the rules say that the IPC of a Leader can be added to the
MMCs IPC - not that a leader increase the IPC of the MMC, and since
the leaders IPC when double-timing is reduced by 1 to 0 it adds 0 to
the MMCs IPC.

If only the MMC is double-timing and not the leader then the MMCs
IPC would still be 3.

 

[Koniak]

I'll try to shine some light.

I think that the rules say that the IPC of a Leader can be added to the
MMCs IPC - not that a leader increase the IPC of the MMC, and since
the leaders IPC when double-timing is reduced by 1 to 0 it adds 0 to
the MMCs IPC.

If only the MMC is double-timing and not the leader then the MMCs
IPC would still be 3.

Ok, thanks for the quick answer!

I've read through the A4.42 and A4.5 again and I realize I'd missenterpreted it.

Tack för hjälpen.

 

[Robin Reeve]

There is a quick-glance game aid given with the ASL Rule Book Version 2 - which appeared in a ASL Journal (or was it an Annual)...
It often is a good idea only to CX the MMC and not the leader...

 

[Koniak]

There is a quick-glance game aid given with the ASL Rule Book Version 2 - which appeared in a ASL Journal (or was it an Annual)...
It often is a good idea only to CX the MMC and not the leader...

So if I understand correctly a leader and an MMC, where the MMC is using CX, could for example:
- Carry 5PP and use 6MF
- Carry 8PP and use 4MF

Is this correct :?:

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So if I understand correctly a leader and an MMC, where the MMC is using CX, could for example:
- Carry 5PP and use 6MF

I think that is correct:
4 MF +2 (double time) +2 leader bonus = 8
and it has an IPC of 2 increased by 1 for the leader for an IPC of 3
and it carries 5 PP so it loses 2 MF and the total is 6 as you state.

- Carry 8PP and use 4MF
Is this correct :?:

I think this would only leave you with 3MF.
6 + 2 (double time) +2 (leader bonus) = 8.
IPC = 2+ 1(leader) = 3, carries 8PP so it loses 5 MF
8-5 = 3 MF

Unless my math fails me.

 

[pryoung]

There is a quick-glance game aid given with the ASL Rule Book Version 2 - which appeared in a ASL Journal (or was it an Annual)...
It often is a good idea only to CX the MMC and not the leader...

Now I think I'm missing something obvious. Why would you CX the MMC and not the leader? Double-timing gives a 2 MF bonus, giving the MMC 6 MF. But a non-CX leader can himself only use 6 MF, thus the MMC could only move 6 MF as well (and the squad can't use the 2 MF leader bonus because the leader can't stay with them for the whole 8 MF without double-timing as well). Thus, the only difference I can see between a stack with a leader and a CX MMC (6 MF, 3 total IPC) and a stack with a leader and normal MMC (6 MF, 4 total IPC) is the loss of an IPC without any improvement in MF. If both the leader and the MMC double-time, then you get 8 MF with 2 IPC. Seems pointless to only double-time the MMC without the leader.

Am I missing something?

Pete

 

[pryoung]

Never mind. Figured it out.

Pete

 

[Koniak]

- Carry 8PP and use 4MF
Is this correct :?:

I think this would only leave you with 3MF.
6 + 2 (double time) +2 (leader bonus) = 8.
IPC = 2+ 1(leader) = 3, carries 8PP so it loses 5 MF
8-5 = 3 MF

Unless my math fails me.

Thats correct math. But I was assuming the leader was carrying 2PP (SMC maximum) and getting his MF reduced from 6MF to 5MF. That would leave the MMC with 4MF, so the group together would be able to use 4MF. Right?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

- Carry 8PP and use 4MF
Is this correct :?:

I think this would only leave you with 3MF.
6 + 2 (double time) +2 (leader bonus) = 8.
IPC = 2+ 1(leader) = 3, carries 8PP so it loses 5 MF
8-5 = 3 MF

Unless my math fails me.

Thats correct math. But I was assuming the leader was carrying 2PP (SMC maximum) and getting his MF reduced from 6MF to 5MF. That would leave the MMC with 4MF, so the group together would be able to use 4MF. Right?

Leader, 6MF, 1IPC, carries 2PP = loses 1MF = 5 MF
MMC, 6 MF +2(DT) + (2 leader) = 8
IPC = 2 (leader is carrying himself so no IPC added to MMC).
6 PP carried by MMC, has 2 IPC = loses 4MF, 8-4 = 4 MF

Seems correct, but it assumes that the things they are carrying can be
split into one heap worth 2 PP and the other worth 6 PP.
E.g. leader carries 2 LMGs (2PP) and the squad 6 LMGs would work.

If they however had 1 british HMG (5PP) and 1 US MMG (3 PP) then
it would not work I think.

 

[Robin Reeve]

So if I understand correctly a leader and an MMC, where the MMC is using CX, could for example:
- Carry 5PP and use 6MF
- Carry 8PP and use 4MF

Is this correct :?:

Important note
Because rule A 4.42 says that "one SMC can add his IPC to that of another Good Odrer Infantry unit to increase the IPC or the latter".
But a CX SMC reduces its 1 IPC to 0 IPC and thus cannot increase the IPC of the Infantry unit it accompanies!
On the MF/PP cross reference chart I find :

CX MMC and Leader, carrying 5 PP : 6MF (or 5 if CX declared during movement)
CX MMC and CX leader, carrying 5 PP : 5MF (or 4 if CX declared during movement)
CX MMC and leader, carrying 8 PP : 3MF (or 2 if CX declared during movement)
CX MMC and CX leader, carrying 8 pp : 2 MF (or 1 if CX declared during movement)

You'll find details about CX rules in the article "Run for the Money", by Steve Peterson, in ASL Annual 96 (pp. 16-17).

 

[Hubbs5]

Never mind. Figured it out.

Pete

Hey Pete I had the same question as you. Why would you want to CX the MMC and not the leader. You said you figured it out but could you do it out loud so the rest of us remedial boys could get up to speed also? Hopefully I am not the only one that didn't figure this out myself.

 

[pryoung]

See the article from the '96 Annual for details. The chart from that article is reprinted on the IIFT divider in the 2nd edition ASLRB.

Basically, if the squad is carrying up to 4pp, there is no bonus in CXing the squad without the leader double-timing as well. However with 5 or more pp to carry, the stack can actually move farther with the MMC double-timing but the leader not doing so.

EX: MMC and leader with the MMC carrying 6pp, moving as a stack.

a) if neither double-times, then they have a combined 4pp (3 from the MMC, 1 from the leader). 6 MF (counting leader bonus) minus 2 MF (for excess pp) leaving 4 MF for the stack that turn.

b) if both double-time, then they have a combined 2 pp (2 from the CX MMC, none from the CX leader). 8 MF (leader bonus and double-time bonus) minus 4 MF (for excess pp) leaving 4 MF for the stack that turn. Thus no advantage in CXing both units.

c) if only the MMC double-times, then they have a combined 3 pp (2 from the CX MMC, 1 from the leader). 8 MF for the MMC (leader bonus and double-time bonus), minus 3 MF for the excess pp leaving 5 MF for the MMC. And of course the leader normally has 6 MF so can move all 5 MF with the MMC.

Note that in a) and b), the combined stack can only move 4 MF because of the penalties for excess pp against the MMC. But in c), the extra pp provided by the non-CX leader allows the MMC to have an extra MF. This works for any pp carried above 4. See the chart on the IIFT divider for confirmation. Hope this helps. Makes my head hurt, but then again, that's ASL!

Pete

 

[Koniak]

Thanks everyone for the good information!

/Mikael

 

[Hubbs5]

See the article from the '96 Annual for details. The chart from that article is reprinted on the IIFT divider in the 2nd edition ASLRB.

Basically, if the squad is carrying up to 4pp, there is no bonus in CXing the squad without the leader double-timing as well. However with 5 or more pp to carry, the stack can actually move farther with the MMC double-timing but the leader not doing so.

EX: MMC and leader with the MMC carrying 6pp, moving as a stack.

a) if neither double-times, then they have a combined 4pp (3 from the MMC, 1 from the leader). 6 MF (counting leader bonus) minus 2 MF (for excess pp) leaving 4 MF for the stack that turn.

Thanks Pete that is good to know. I never thought about DT the MMC and not the leader but that extra 1 MF could come in handy.

b) if both double-time, then they have a combined 2 pp (2 from the CX MMC, none from the CX leader). 8 MF (leader bonus and double-time bonus) minus 4 MF (for excess pp) leaving 4 MF for the stack that turn. Thus no advantage in CXing both units.

c) if only the MMC double-times, then they have a combined 3 pp (2 from the CX MMC, 1 from the leader). 8 MF for the MMC (leader bonus and double-time bonus), minus 3 MF for the excess pp leaving 5 MF for the MMC. And of course the leader normally has 6 MF so can move all 5 MF with the MMC.

Note that in a) and b), the combined stack can only move 4 MF because of the penalties for excess pp against the MMC. But in c), the extra pp provided by the non-CX leader allows the MMC to have an extra MF. This works for any pp carried above 4. See the chart on the IIFT divider for confirmation. Hope this helps. Makes my head hurt, but then again, that's ASL!

Pete