low crawl

Jo.B

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
321
Reaction score
24
Location
Province Tirol
Country
llAustria
7683
the broken squad wants to low crawl. in to which of the three hexes A,B and C the unit may Low Crawl.
Additionaly Question: why A is not excluded because of it is not the shortest path to the rout target?
 

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,910
Reaction score
1,519
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
View attachment 7683
the broken squad wants to low crawl. in to which of the three hexes A,B and C the unit may Low Crawl.
Additionaly Question: why A is not excluded because of it is not the shortest path to the rout target?
B is your answer as using A towards either hex AA1 or BB1 will be 4MF (A10.51 ...a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex... ) and is greater than the expenditure to hex BB1 thru BB2 (3MF); and C is out because it is not closer to a building/woods than B even though it would result in no possible interdiction could it rout there without using Low Crawl.
 
Last edited:

WuWei

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
736
Reaction score
336
Location
Germany
Country
llGermany
Your Rout destination has to be BB1. There's no other woods/building hex that is fewer MF away, and you can't ignore BB1. So, you can't go to C, because that doesn't move you towards your destination.
If you didn't use Low Crawl, you could go to BB1 either via AA2 (your A) or BB2 (your B), because of A10.51:
"As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route"

I think the same applies to Low Crawl. But I'm not 100% sure.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,123
Reaction score
5,257
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Low Crawl "must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location," which "A" and "B" are. Both would be legal paths for normal rout too.

Perhaps a more interesting question would be if the rout chosen made it impossible to reach the rout target, e.g. get rid of X1, Z1, DD2, CC1; put the broken unit in AA4; put rubble in AA2 and BB2, and put SMOKE in AA3. The nearest woods is still BB1 (I believe), and the unit would have to rout through BB3 to reach it in one turn, but if it low crawled to AA3 it would be moving closer even though not on a path that could reach it in one turn.

JR
 

clubby

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
527
Location
CA
Country
llUnited States
Maybe I don't understand the question. BB1 is the rout target, but I thought once you determined the target you could take whatever rout path you wanted as long as you reach the target in that RtPh. So, there would be no need to low crawl because you could go through AA2 to BB1 in 4MF and you've satisfied all conditions. Is that not right?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,123
Reaction score
5,257
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Maybe I don't understand the question. BB1 is the rout target, but I thought once you determined the target you could take whatever rout path you wanted as long as you reach the target in that RtPh. So, there would be no need to low crawl because you could go through AA2 to BB1 in 4MF and you've satisfied all conditions. Is that not right?
For some reason the player wanted to low crawl and didn't want to end up in the open. Don't know why. Perhaps it would mess up units moving along the road. A broken unit can always reach its rout target; its rout target has to be reachable for it to be a rout target. Low crawl is an option that is usually taken to avoid interdiction, but one can do it for any reason or no reason.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,910
Reaction score
1,519
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Maybe I don't understand the question. BB1 is the rout target, but I thought once you determined the target you could take whatever rout path you wanted as long as you reach the target in that RtPh. So, there would be no need to low crawl because you could go through AA2 to BB1 in 4MF and you've satisfied all conditions. Is that not right?
Per A10.51 "...as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh. " No mention of being able to use SMOKE as cover for an additional MF expenditure, in fact it is specifically denied as it would then NOT be the shortest path in MF, thus A is out. The hex B is the only path that is the shortest in MF for meeting both the nearest in MF calculated at the start of the MPh to BB1 and being the shortest path in MF as noted herein.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,123
Reaction score
5,257
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Per A10.51 "...as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh. " No mention of being able to use SMOKE as cover for an additional MF expenditure, in fact it is specifically denied as it would then NOT be the shortest path in MF, thus A is out. The hex B is the only path that is the shortest in MF for meeting both the nearest in MF calculated at the start of the MPh to BB1 and being the shortest path in MF as noted herein.
Per A10.51, "As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route, but as long as it folllows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh." If it wants to use shellholes, etc which add MF, it must follow the otherwise-shortest route. If it doesn't want to use shellholes, etc, it need not use the otherwise-shortest route. In this case there were no shellholes, etc., so it need not use the otherwise-shortest route, and per a later sentence in A10.51 the broken unit need not reach that rout target.

JR
 

synicbast

ASLOK Junkie
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
215
Location
Gosford Australia
First name
Peter
Country
llNew Zealand
the question is not about the MFs expended in a normal allowed rout but what hexes are eligible for low crawl. Introducing all these additional comments applying to a non-low crawl rout are confusing the matter. The fact is:

1: determine the closest destination hex for routing.
2. As the routing unit has chosen to low crawl, which hexes are eligible to enter as Low crawl.

anything else is not germane.
 

hayman

Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
607
Reaction score
196
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
As the routing unit has chosen to low crawl
Therefore either AA2 or BB2 are the only legal hexes the unit may low crawl to (on the way to BB1).

Or the unit could move AA2, BB1 then to CC1 in the one Rout Phase (without Interdiction).
 

Jo.B

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
321
Reaction score
24
Location
Province Tirol
Country
llAustria
B is your answer as using A towards either hex AA1 or BB1 will be 4MF (A10.51 ...a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex... ) and is greater than the expenditure to hex BB1 thru BB2 (3MF); and C is out because it is not closer to a building/woods than B even though it would result in no possible interdiction could it rout there without using Low Crawl.
thanks for answer. I think you are right.

I asked this question in the two facebook groups, and also cited your answer

However, so far all agree B is a possible hex.
some like AB only
some want ABC.
and some people see B as the only option.

with most players in the AB group

and continuously assuming you are right with B only.
for what is the "[EXC: if using Low Crawl] " good for ?
in 10.52 ”At the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh [EXC: if using Low Crawl].”
 
Last edited:

R Hooks

Smoke Break brb
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
635
Reaction score
110
Location
beaumont texas
Country
llUnited States
I have to go with AB, you're doing low crawl so I don't see MF having anything to do with it, its one hex no need IMO to count. C is not eligible because it doesn't take you closer to the target hex.
 

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,910
Reaction score
1,519
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
thanks for answer. I think you are right.

I asked this question in the two facebook groups, and also cited your answer

However, so far all agree B is a possible hex.
some like AB only
some want ABC.
and some people see B as the only option.

with most players in the AB group

and continuously assuming you are right with B only.
for what is the "[EXC: if using Low Crawl] " good for ?
in 10.52 ”At the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh [EXC: if using Low Crawl].”
My take (only MHO) is that the target hex must still be determined as per the statement of determining a rout destination at the Start of the RtPh (I believe almost everyone agrees with this position) and therefore BB1 must be the initial rout destination target. Again following the direction in A10.51 one must follow the path of least MF expenditure [EXC: the ability to enter Shellholes, Foxholes, etc.] even though that may not be the shortest route to the target hex (i.e. straight line hex distance). The EXC noted for Low Crawl does not relieve you from these parameters but simply says relieves you from the stipulation that one needs to attempt to reach the target destination hex that RtPh because you are only routing a single hex. Some believe that would allow you to chose A in the example provided but I do not believe so as this violates the shortest path in MF stipulation that you have not been relieved from; therefore only B is an acceptable answer. JMHO of course.
 

synicbast

ASLOK Junkie
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
215
Location
Gosford Australia
First name
Peter
Country
llNew Zealand
My take (only MHO) is that the target hex must still be determined as per the statement of determining a rout destination at the Start of the RtPh (I believe almost everyone agrees with this position) and therefore BB1 must be the initial rout destination target. Again following the direction in A10.51 one must follow the path of least MF expenditure [EXC: the ability to enter Shellholes, Foxholes, etc.] even though that may not be the shortest route to the target hex (i.e. straight line hex distance). The EXC noted for Low Crawl does not relieve you from these parameters but simply says relieves you from the stipulation that one needs to attempt to reach the target destination hex that RtPh because you are only routing a single hex. Some believe that would allow you to chose A in the example provided but I do not believe so as this violates the shortest path in MF stipulation that you have not been relieved from; therefore only B is an acceptable answer. JMHO of course.
I disagree with this only in so far as because LC is a use of ALL MF to move one hex. The MF cost is immaterial.


the reason i say this is that the actual text of the rule regarding shortest path oin MF is:
A10.51, 5th Sentence
"As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route, but as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, (remaining irrelevant part of sentence removed)."

That sentence is specifically referring to non-LC routing and thus the shortest path in MF does not apply to LC because a LC obviates the requirement to reach the destination hex.

So because the first part of that sentence which is the requirement, does not apply in to LC, the subordinate clause also does not apply
 
Last edited:

Jo.B

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
321
Reaction score
24
Location
Province Tirol
Country
llAustria
I disagree with this only in so far as because LC is a use of ALL MF to move one hex. The MF cost is immaterial.
how do you explain the:
"All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest
woods/building Location within 6 MF"
in 10.52 when MF is immaterial ?
 

Will Fleming

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
4,312
Reaction score
386
Location
Adrift on the Pequod
Country
llUnited States
Pretty sure the big guy (Perry, who is much loved) will come down on A or B. Anyone give him a chance yet?

As an American, I am sure they could go to either location. French and Italians might find a way to make "C" legal too!
 

synicbast

ASLOK Junkie
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
215
Location
Gosford Australia
First name
Peter
Country
llNew Zealand
how do you explain the:
"All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest
woods/building Location within 6 MF"
in 10.52 when MF is immaterial ?
beacuse the nearest woods/building location within 6MF is how you determine the initial rout destination hex.

As has been explained previously numerous times, the first thing you do in the rout phase for a routing unit is determine the destination hex. That is what that phrase is referring to. A low crawl uses ALL MF of the routing unit, therefore whether it costs 2, 3 4 or 5 MF is not relevant, it is a ONE HEX move. But it must be towards that initial rout destination hex as determined in step 1.
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,702
Reaction score
536
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
beacuse the nearest woods/building location within 6MF is how you determine the initial rout destination hex.

As has been explained previously numerous times, the first thing you do in the rout phase for a routing unit is determine the destination hex. That is what that phrase is referring to. A low crawl uses ALL MF of the routing unit, therefore whether it costs 2, 3 4 or 5 MF is not relevant, it is a ONE HEX move. But it must be towards that initial rout destination hex as determined in step 1.
I agree with the A or B but...where in the rules does it say LC uses ALL MF?
 
Top