LOS Under an Orchard?

von Marwitz

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View attachment 51282

Does LOS exist between O14 and M14 ... or does the inherent orchards arise from Level 0 and Level 1?
No LOS exists.

If you have Inherent Terrain, then the Terrain is located on the respective level, i.e. in your example the Inherent Palm Trees in N13 rise from level 1 on the hill depiction and from level 0 from ground level depiction.

If you have Non-Inherent Terrain, like woods for example, it is different. If the woods depiction would extrend across the crest-line into the level 0 depiction of a hex, the entire woods portion overlapping into level 0 depiction is considered to be level 1 with woods rising from level 1 up to level 2 (i.e. there are no "floating" woods, but there's hill considered beneath them). The newer mapboards (bd 61 for example) have highlighted crestlines that can be seen passing through terrain crossing crestlines. In such a case according to Journal 10, it is officially recommended to treat that portion of non-inherent terrain (like woods) as rising from the lower level. However, per the "hard rules", even then non-inherent terrain would rise from the upper level, which is still standard for the older boards without highlighted crest-lines. This means that when playing with boards using highlighted crestlines, you should convene with you opponent on how to treat them before play.

P.S.
If, in your example, you would not have Palm Trees, but out-of-season Orchard, then a LOS would exist (1 Hindrance).

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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As von Marwitz has it, no LOS per B10.1. Non-inherent terrain always rises from the higher level (and implicitly has hill under it). Inherent terrain rises from the ground level depicted under it. Inherent terrain rises from level one in the level-one-hill-color parts of the hex and from level zero in the other parts of the hex.

JR
 

Robin Reeve

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The newer mapboards (bd 61 for example) have highlighted crestlines that can be seen passing through terrain crossing crestlines. In such a case according to Journal 10, it is officially recommended to treat that portion of non-inherent terrain (like woods) as rising from the lower level.
It is, I think, included as errata for B10.1 : " [EXC: Newer boards may depict visible Crest Lines beneath this other terrain (EX: 61F8), in which case the actual Crest Line is used to determine LOS as is the case with Inherent Terrain]"
 

klasmalmstrom

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It is, I think, included as errata for B10.1 : " [EXC: Newer boards may depict visible Crest Lines beneath this other terrain (EX: 61F8), in which case the actual Crest Line is used to determine LOS as is the case with Inherent Terrain]"
Note that this errata only applies to some hills with grain on them - the only such terrain (at the moment) where the Crest Line beneath the terrain (i.e., grain) is fully visible.
 

Wayne

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Note that this errata only applies to some hills with grain on them - the only such terrain (at the moment) where the Crest Line beneath the terrain (i.e., grain) is fully visible.
Technically correct, but the errata includes a Chap B Footnote encouraging players to apply the errata more generally:

MMP website said:
B27.6 and Chapter B Footnotes: change existing footnote "3A" to "3B" and add new Chapter B footnote:
"3A. 10.1 HILLS: In addition to having visible Crest Lines beneath some terrain, newer boards are much better at depicting where Crest Lines actually are by using gaps in the terrain. In many areas of these boards, most players will be able to agree on where the Crest Lines actually are underneath the other terrain of grain, brush, woods, or buildings even without visible Crest Lines. When players can so agree, we encourage them to use the actual Crest Lines to determine LOS."
So, if all agree the board art is clear enough, the new Crest Line LOS rule goes for pretty much any terrain.
 

Aavar

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Orchard is still inherent terrain though , so it occurs in the whole hex, above the crest line and also below it, unless changed by SSR
 

Robin Reeve

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Orchard is still inherent terrain though , so it occurs in the whole hex, above the crest line and also below it, unless changed by SSR
As said in the previous posts, B10.1 applies indeed.
 

jrv

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To summarize B10.1, non-inherent terrain creates a crest line; inherent terrain honors the existing crest line.

The outline of non-inherent terrain, whether it be brush, buildings, woods, grain or whatever, is a crest line where it touches lower-level depiction and the ground under it is at the upper level.

Inherent terrain--e.g. orchard, crag, vehicle/wreck, bamboo, dense jungle, rubble--rises from the level of the ground terrain depicted in the hex, with it rising from the upper level where upper level ground is depicted and from the lower level otherwise.

Some maps have non-inherent terrain that have crest lines drawn within them, and these crest lines can be optionally followed instead of following B10.1 strictly. As far as I know this only applies to grain, and only on some late boards such as 59H3. You may also attempt to guess the crest lines in woods hexes that have peek-a-boo holes to show the hex height such as 47G3 or 47K3. Depending on the hex and the artwork, that can be a lot trickier. Using B10.1 without modification, all the non-inherent terrain that surrounds such a hole is at the upper level to the hex edge.

JR
 

Jupiter3

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Just to verify I am reading B.6 correctly. Regarding Inherent Terrain Hexsides, Even if O14 was not an orchard hex, LOS would still be blocked from O14 to M14 because of the orchard in N13 rising from level 0 along the N13/N14 hexside, correct?
 

jrv

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Just to verify I am reading B.6 correctly. Regarding Inherent Terrain Hexsides, Even if O14 was not an orchard hex, LOS would still be blocked from O14 to M14 because of the orchard in N13 rising from level 0 along the N13/N14 hexside, correct?
Yes. LOS is never--well, hardly ever--blocked by terrain in the target/viewer hex. Changing terrain in those hexes usually does not change the LOS as long as the relative positions of units and other terrain is kept the same.

One counter-example is changing the target (lower) hex from the lower part of a crest line to a depression. Depressions have steeper sides, and the viewer has to be closer to see INTO the depression.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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As JR said:

The problem here lies not in O14. Despite the Palmtrees in O14 rising from lvl1 to lvl2 on the hill and from lvl 0 to lvl 1 on ground level, you can still fire out of the hex. Firing out of your own hex is almost always possible (of course there are EXC).

LOS from O14 to M14 is ONLY blocked due to the Palmtrees in N13.

von Marwitz
 

carlsson

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Four years later I wonder how you guys play this. Are you hardcore about the original phrasing, or do you implement the encouragement to use the logical crest line?

Eg, as per the attachment, will the woods in H3 block LOS to I3 (assuming that the LOS originate from Level 0)?

??
 

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Eagle4ty

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Four years later I wonder how you guys play this. Are you hardcore about the original phrasing, or do you implement the encouragement to use the logical crest line?

Eg, as per the attachment, will the woods in H3 block LOS to I3 (assuming that the LOS originate from Level 0)?

??
To me it seems as if there's the slightest bit of green woods on both sides of the string as it enters H3 from G3 and Woods is normally an obstacle to LOS/LOF, so yes the LOS is blocked (benefit of the doubt to the defender for once as trees are not uniformly tall; that even if we extrapolate the crest-line). YMMV.
 
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