LOS to CAFP for a vehicle in Bypass

[Eagle4ty]

Sorry if this question has been asked but couldn't find a thread that addressed the following question:

Is the CAFP of a bypassing vehicle always based upon the Frontal VCA? That is to say, if a vehicle in bypass would start in reverse, would the CAFP automatically switch to the other vertex of the hexside being straddled (thus possibly immediately going out of LOS to an enemy unit with LOS to the Frontal CAFP only)? And, if a vehicle in bypass using Reverse Movement/Motion would Stop, would the CAFP immediately shift to the Frontal VCA (thus potentially having the same effect)? Seems to be the Front VCA is always used, but it doesn't seem absolutely clear (at least to me) that this is always the case. In other words, can the vehicle teleport between CAFPs? Thanks.

 

[jrv]

Yes, the CAFP is always at the front, even when the vehicle is moving in reverse or is stopped. The CAFP is defined in terms of the VCA [D2.32], which is defined in D3.1-.2. If the VCA changes, then all the bow weapons are now facing the other way and the armor changes direction too.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

Thanks jrv, that's what I always thought as well (not everyone buys off on it though).

 

[jrv]

Thanks jrv, that's what I always thought as well (not everyone buys off on it though).

The definition of the CAFP is, "the VCA corner of the counter resting on the vertex of that hexside in the direction the vehicle is facing" [D2.32]. It is the direction the vehicle is facing that determines the CAFP, not the direction that the vehicle is moving. If the vehicle is moving in reverse, the direction that it is facing is opposite of the direction that it is moving, and the CAFP is in the direction that the vehicle is facing, which will be the opposite of the direction that it is moving.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

I

The definition of the CAFP is, "the VCA corner of the counter resting on the vertex of that hexside in the direction the vehicle is facing" [D2.32]. It is the direction the vehicle is facing that determines the CAFP, not the direction that the vehicle is moving. If the vehicle is moving in reverse, the direction that it is facing is opposite of the direction that it is moving, and the CAFP is in the direction that the vehicle is facing, which will be the opposite of the direction that it is moving.

JR

I'll have to try & remember that argument, hopefully it'll sink into my brain cavity before "old-timers" disease does.

 

[Philippe D.]

I never noticed this... in some cases, it may make possible some rather cheesy techniques, where moving a vehicle in Reverse Bypass makes it possible to avoid all LOS whereas moving in forward Bypass would make it vulnerable to fire. Not sure if it can be really abused, as turning a vehicle around specifically for this would be very expensive MP-wise (turn 3 hexsides, stop, restart in Reverse, bypass in Reverse, stop, restart forward, turn 3 hexsides: that's 10 MP plus the increased cost of the VBM, compared to a single forward VBM).

 

[von Marwitz]

I never noticed this... in some cases, it may make possible some rather cheesy techniques, where moving a vehicle in Reverse Bypass makes it possible to avoid all LOS whereas moving in forward Bypass would make it vulnerable to fire.

This cuts both ways as the the bypassing vehicle can't see or fire either in such situations.

And even under the best of circumstances, if you are reversing into bypass and are stopping and starting, you will not be moving far.

von Marwitz

 

[Philippe D.]

With CAs significantly altered while in VBM, planning to fire while in VBM is a rather risky proposition, so I don't see this loss of LOS as a very significant drawback - unless I'm trying to VBM freeze some Infantry, I rarely end a MPh in VBM. This mostly leaves the MP cost, which is very significant - but sometimes, spending a whole turn moving past a dangerous enemy without entering its LOS is worth it.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Play "SP's Fiery Finale" you'll get your share of Bypass Shots there (not to mention to being one of the very best scenarios I've ever played - A Hoot!).

Philippe, I hope you weren't talking about changing your VCA in bypass, as you can only continue forward (to include an additional bypass to any adjacent hexesides to the FVCA) or start in reverse and do similarly (with the RVCA limitations). One cannot "turn around" while in bypass - but I don't think that's what you meant.

 

[Philippe D.]

No, what is was thinking of was the following situation (no VASL at hand, so I won't be able to post pictures).

You have an AFV in a hex, out of the opponent's LOS. The hexside straight ahead is a bypassable one, say with obstacles on both sides, with clear terrain two hexes ahead and that hex also a "safe" hex, but the natural CAFP (the end of the hexside straight ahead) is in enemy LOS, and typically subject to a side shot since so much is in the Side VCA while in VBM.

If you go ahead and bypass, you will be subject to a possible side shot, with typically two MPs spent in LOS (two MPs for a VBM in Open Ground by a fully-tracked vehicle, the standard situation). Not a perfect shot, but still dangerous.

Now, if you turn around in your hex, restart in Reverse, and bypass in Reverse, this will cost you a lot more MPs (need to stop/restart, need to do a half turn before and a half turn after the bypass, and need to pay reverse cost for the VBM), but LOS would have to be traced to a different CAFP, which may very well be blocked. So this may very well cost you a full MP allotment (or even a bit more) for a not-too-fast tank, but it may make the movement perfectly safe in a situation where going forward would at least allow the opponent a side shot.

When playing the other side, I would typically think of the possibility of a shot at the natural CAFP (and make sure I was covering it, if the opponent was likely to try VBMing to the other side), but I'd most likely not think of the possibility of a Reverse VBM changing the CAFP.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Yup, kind of thought that's what you were getting at.

 

[Binchois]

So just to be sure I have this right, let's use the following example of a Pz IVJ in bypass:



The tank's CAFP is V1/V2/W2 AND will remain at that vertex whether or not the vehicle starts to move in reverse (or if it got there using reverse movement). According to D2.33, it could reverse directly into the W1 building, or change VCA at its current CAFP (clockwise, in order to reverse into the W2 building, or counterclockwise in order to reverse into the W2 building).

2.33 VCA CHANGES: VCA changes by a vehicle using VBM are limited to the two hexsides of the VCA at the CAFP (i.e., the two hexspines of its CAFP which are not straddled by its counter). Therefore, a Bypassing vehicle desiring to move must either move (outright or via Bypass) into the hex which forms the base of its VCA, or pay one MP for a VCA change to continue Bypass along a connecting hexside of that CAFP (other than the one it just traversed), or use Reverse Movement. Even a fully-tracked CT AFV may not enter the obstacle of a hex it is currently Bypassing; it must first leave and re-enter the hex. A vehicle in stationary Bypass cannot change its VCA to take a shot; i.e., it can only change VCA if exiting that Bypass hexside. A VBM vehicle making a VCA change cannot voluntarily end its MPh in that position; it must move to the next CAFP or reverse into a new hex to its rear. If Defensive First Fired upon or Immobilized before it can complete its move, it is considered to be at the same CAFP and Target Facing last occupied before the VCA change.​

I also believe that the passage highlighted means that the tank may not change VCA in order to reverse into bypass of W1 (on the W1/W2 hexside) as the only reverse options given are to rotate at the CAFP and/or to move into the "hex to its rear."

Any corrections to the above?

 

[Philippe D.]

At least one of the things you are saying cannot be true - the tank, moving in Reverse, cannot change its VCA to enter the obstacle it is Bypassing (cf the rule you are quoting: no way you can enter the obstacle without first leaving the hex). I see no such restriction against changing VCA to enter the obstacle on the other side of the hexside, though it does seem strange.

But even stranger (to me) is that, by a strict reading of the rules, it seems you cannot change CAFP to V1/W1/W2, into VBM of W1/W2 - in practice, this means you can go (forward) from W1/W2 (in VBM of either W1 or W2) to V1/W2 (again, in Bypass of either hex), but not the other way around in Reverse VBM. Or, even stranger to me, it might be that, if currently in V1, then reversing to W1/W2 (at CAFP V1/W1/W2, and in either hex) is allowed, because you are indeed changing hex, but if in W2, you could reverse to W1/W2 but only in hex W1.

Overall, the twole thing seems to me to be worthy of a Q&A. The rule, as written, seems to mostly deal with forward VBM, not really with Reverse movement.

 

[Binchois]

Overall, the whole thing seems to me to be worthy of a Q&A. The rule, as written, seems to mostly deal with forward VBM, not really with Reverse movement.

Definitely!

At least one of the things you are saying cannot be true - the tank, moving in Reverse, cannot change its VCA to enter the obstacle it is Bypassing (cf the rule you are quoting: no way you can enter the obstacle without first leaving the hex). I see no such restriction against changing VCA to enter the obstacle on the other side of the hexside, though it does seem strange.

Aha - thanks! That would seem to rule out the possibility of changing VCA at the CAFP in order to reverse into any other hex (W2 or V1 in my example). That is, why allow reversing into one and not the other?!

But even stranger (to me) is that, by a strict reading of the rules, it seems you cannot change CAFP to V1/W1/W2, into VBM of W1/W2 - in practice, this means you can go (forward) from W1/W2 (in VBM of either W1 or W2) to V1/W2 (again, in Bypass of either hex), but not the other way around in Reverse VBM. Or, even stranger to me, it might be that, if currently in V1, then reversing to W1/W2 (at CAFP V1/W1/W2, and in either hex) is allowed, because you are indeed changing hex, but if in W2, you could reverse to W1/W2 but only in hex W1.

I agree, very strange. Perhaps the most logical solution would be to allow reverse from bypass to bypass using the opposite of when a vehicle wants to exit a hex, forwards, into a new bypass:

1) The tank needs to start in reverse still at the forward CAFP (V1/V2/W2 in my example).
2) Reverse directly into bypass of its rear facing hex (now at V1/W1/W2) though facing an "illegal" way.
3) be forced, by rule, to expend an additional MP in order to adjust its VCA to one of the two, new legal facings (depending upon which side of the obstacle was being bypassed).

Unfortunately, the rules don't specify any of this. But the above solution uses essentially the same rules of forwards movement, and would eliminate any moment when the tank would seem to "teleport" from one vertex to another.

As I explained in my previous post, however, it seems like reversing from bypass into another bypass in not allowed by the RB. Perhaps this is intentional?

 

[Philippe D.]

Aha - thanks! That would seem to rule out the possibility of changing VCA at the CAFP in order to reverse into any other hex (W2 or V1 in my example). That is, why allow reversing into one and not the other?!

As is, well... because that's what the rules forbid. If you're on a hexside, bypassing one of the hexes, the rules say you cannot enter that hex's obstacle without first leaving the hex; they say nothing about entering the obstacle on the other side. So maybe, just maybe, the intention is that you could possibly, if in Reverse movement, change VCA and enter the other hex.

As I explained in my previous post, however, it seems like reversing from bypass into another bypass in not allowed by the RB. Perhaps this is intentional?

Perhaps, but I'm not sure. (Bad) reality argument: turning while reversing with a truck is definitely more difficult than when going forward, but from the mechanics of the thing, I'd have guessed that the situation is different with a tracked vehicle (but then, I've never been in one, never mind driven one).