LOS in three sided buildings All the same or not.

[Tom Nelson]

While we recently played Fighting Back we had a dispute about firing from one hex of a triangular building to another hex of that same building. I do not have the board number at hand. Are all such three sides buildings the same in terms of LOS. You do not have to draw strings between them. Do they all uniformly allow LOS between the hexes even from one floor to another. Tom

 

[Binchois]

While we recently played Fighting Back we had a dispute about firing from one hex of a triangular building to another hex of that same building. I do not have the board number at hand. Are all such three sides buildings the same in terms of LOS. You do not have to draw strings between them. Do they all uniformly allow LOS between the hexes even from one floor to another. Tom

Hi Tom,

This seems fairly obvious, so I hope I am not misunderstanding your question (a board # would be helpful). But I know how easy it is to start doubting some basics in the HOB!:laugh:

In general, LOS between units in the SAME building is always blocked when the units are on different levels (but not sharing an inherent/printed stairwell just one level apart) or when units are not in adjacent hexes. There are a few special circumstances when this isn't true (for example, unusual building types like Factories; or by SSR), but in standard situations this applies.

That said, things change completely when LOS exits the building depiction before leaving the firer's hex. At that point, LOS is treated as if it was coming from another building altogether and, thus, LOS can be traced between separate levels. For two examples, see the below images. In the first case, a unit at level 1 in hex 1L6 cannot see either ground level or level 2 of hex 1N7.

View attachment 54343

In another case, however, like 51 DD2, a unit at any level of DD2 can see any level of EE2. My apologies for such a faint LOS thread in the image, but if you squint, you can see when the thread crosses the hexside, it is crossing open ground and not any portion of the building.

View attachment 54344

Fire from DD1 (level 2) to EE2 (ground level) could be more interesting, though, depending upon your boards. In my VASL depiction, LOS between them may cross the hexside in OG, in which case LOS is clear. More likely (to my aging eyes!), it will be crossing a portion of the building at the point when LOS intersects the hexside. In this case, LOS would be blocked between all but same-level units.

 

[Robin Reeve]

If hexes are ADJACENT, there is LOS between Locations at the same level (EXC: Rowhouses).
Forget the possible portions of Open Ground.
If firing to a different level, the LOS line must leave the firer's hex and cross Open Ground before entering the target's hex.

Where there can be a difference, is with a Factory : of the LOS from one hex of the Factory to another one leaves the building before reentering it, full TEM (and not the inner Factory TEM) applies.

B23.741 : ... The TEM of a Factory hex to fire traced completely through the same building is +1. The TEM of a Factory hex to fire traced completely through the same building is +1.

And the example after 23.743 explains : "EX: 20E7 is a Factory. The 4-6-8 in E7 attacks the 6-2-8 in D8 with a TEM of +3 because the LOS is not traced entirely through the Factory depiction."

That said, a picture of the precise building the OP has in mind could help.

 

[Tom Nelson]

Thanks for the examples. This heated argument happened about 4 am in the morning. My opponent stated that all such regular three sides buildings were different and required the placement of string. I insisted that this type of buildings were basically the same and did not require such individual attention. Sometimes basic assumptions need to be challenged. Tom. P. S. I think that the victory condition for the attacking Polish side in this scenario are difficult to accomplish. Too many building objectives and at too great a distance. What is the consensus on this Doomed Battalions scenario.

 

[Rock SgtDan]

In another case, however, like 51 DD2, a unit at any level of DD2 can see any level of EE2. My apologies for such a faint LOS thread in the image, but if you squint, you can see when the thread crosses the hexside, it is crossing open ground and not any portion of the building.
View attachment 54344

Why do you believe that the light grey is mere shadow art and not part of the building? Do the rules clarify this somewhere? the light grey wraps around a 90 degree turn, on two sides, but the sun angle would not be the same as the sun angle shown on the building below, where half the roof is in light grey.

 

[Philippe D.]

Why do you believe that the light grey is mere shadow art and not part of the building? Do the rules clarify this somewhere? the light grey wraps around a 90 degree turn, on two sides, but the sun angle would not be the same as the sun angle shown on the building below, where half the roof is in light grey.

There is no mention, or hint, of a "shadow" in what you quoted; his point is that, for some buildings, the LOS crosses the hexside on open ground depiction, and for some others, it crosses the hexside inside the building depiction, and this is what makes a difference for Factories or different-level LOS.

 

[Rock SgtDan]

Aha. helps when I enhance the zoom.