LOS from caves to lower level (G11.5)

WuWei

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Situation:9014Without counters:9015

Is there a LOS from the units in the cave L21/3152 to J22/3127?

G11.5:
"LOS to/from a cave is traced to/from the cave hex's center dot and the cave's level, but can exist only if traced entirely within that cave's CA.
...
Barring other LOS obstructions, LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave in a non-Depression hex to/from an elevation lower than the cave's if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain (including a Crest Line) whose obstacle height along that LOS is > that cave's level."

There is no other LOS obstruction. The Entrance Hex (K22/3140) contains no terrain with height > the cave's level. So the LOS should be clear, I think.
My opponent hopes otherwise, fearing my two HMG/crews with 10-2 leader. "Shouldn't that be a blind hex or something?"
 

klasmalmstrom

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IIRC, the Double-Crest between K22 and J22 will make J21 a Blind Hex from L21.

A10.23:
"A lower level non-cliff Crest Line creates a Blind Hex to a higher level viewer only if that Crest Line is at least five hexes away from that viewer and the next hex along his LOS has a lower elevation than that of the Crest Line hex [EXC: If the elevation level difference caused by that Crest Line and the next hex along the LOS is ≥ two, at least one Blind Hex is created (unless adjacent) even if within five hexes of the higher level firing hex]"
 

jrv

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My belief is that the cave ought to be treated roughly as if it were at level 1/4 relative to its entrance hex, i.e. slightly higher than the entrance hex (only). If there is a double crest or a cliff on the other side of the entrance hex, that will create blind hexes as per normal. I have never tested this hypothesis by submitting for q&a however. One can extend this question to other combinations with an upper-cliff cave, e.g. a upper-cliff cave at level one with bamboo in its entrance hex or an upper cliff cave at level two with jungle in its entrance hex.

JR
 

WuWei

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G11.5 is the higher alphanumeric rule and should take precedence. There isn't an EXC for double crest lines or blind hexes.
 

jrv

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G11.5 is the higher alphanumeric rule and should take precedence. There isn't an EXC for double crest lines or blind hexes.
You could play it that way, but I don't think that is what was intended. You could submit for a q&a; I'd like to see that. I believe that the double-crest line and cliff cases should be "other LOS obstacles." JMHO.

JR
 

jrv

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This is a question I have had for years. I submitted for a q&a. I would like to see it resolved.

JR
 

WuWei

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This is a question I have had for years. I submitted for a q&a. I would like to see it resolved.
Thanks! That spares me the effort.
 

klasmalmstrom

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G11.5:
"...Barring other LOS obstructions, LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave in a non-Depression hex to/from an elevation lower than the cave’s if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain (including a Crest Line) whose obstacle height along that LOS is > that cave’s level..."

IMO, the Double Crest falls under the "Barring other LOS obstructions".

Also, it would not make sense (IMO) if a unit in the Cave in L21 could see down to J22, but a unit outside (probably even higher up) of the cave in L21 could not, ymmv.
 

WuWei

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I'm under the impression that "Barring other LOS obstructions..." refers to potential LOS obstructions outside the Entrance Hex.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I'm under the impression that "Barring other LOS obstructions..." refers to potential LOS obstructions outside the Entrance Hex.
I don't interpret it that way. As I said above, it would be strange if a unit in a cave would see J22 but e.g., a unit on the third floor of a multi-level building in the hex would not.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Btw, there already exists a Q&A that says a Cliff hexside creates Blind Hexes in this situation - so I would be very surprised if a Q&A on Double Crests did not return the same answer.

G11.5 & G11.51
If a cave entrance hex has a cliff on the other side, does that cliff create blind hexes? For example if a cave is in 25CC5 facing
25DD4, is there a LOS from that cave to 25EE4 level one? To 25FF3? If the cliff were two levels tall, would there be a LOS to
25EE4 level zero?
A. The cliff does create blind hexes. No to all the examples.

9019

Here is the thread that lead to this Q&A:

..and here is the link to the posted Q&A:
 

jrv

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Oh. Apparently I did get a q&a. Oops.

That is how I would expect it to be played. More or less as if the cave were at a fractional level above its entrance hex. I use 1/4 level because that makes it clear that 1/2 level obstacles in the entrance hex still block.

JR
 

jrv

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The real reason it has to be this way is because otherwise it introduces an (obvious) absurdity into the rules. In your example a unit in L21 not in a cave has no LOS to J22 because of the blind hex caused by K22. If a unit in a cave has LOS while a unit at ground level above the cave does not, that is absurd. The way G11.5 was phrased is unfortunate, but I think the rule has to be played per the q&a.

JR
 
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WuWei

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The real reason it has to be this way is because otherwise it introduces an (obvious) absurdity into the rules. In your example a unit in L21 not in a cave has no LOS to J22 because of the blind hex caused by K22. If a unit in a cave has LOS while a unit at ground level above the cave does not, that is absurd.
That's an excellent argument! I'm convinced.
 
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