LOS and of hindrance of inherent terrain Vertex_

[Ferni]

I have a question about the LOS that exactly pass through the vertex of an inherent terrain hex which can cause Hindrance, according to "A6.7 LOS HINDRANCE: Some terrain types are not uniformly high or substantial enough to be considered a complete obstacle to same-level LOS, and are listed as LOS Hindrance hexes because each one hinders such fire traced through its hex to another hex
To affect the LOS it has to pass through...", so the vertex doesn't look like affect the LOS

but according to "B.6 INHERENT TERRAIN: Certain terrain depictions (orchard, crag, graveyard, shellholes, etc.) and counter contents of a hex (SMOKE, Bridge, rubble, AFV, wreck) [EXC: Bypass AFV/Wreck (D9.4)] identify the entire hex (inclusive of hexsides) as having the characteristics of that terrain type. It is not necessary that a LOS actually cross such a symbol to be affected—mere entrance of the hex (even if only to trace a LOS to or through a vertex of such a hex) or a LOS exactly along one of its hexsides (A6.1) suffices." so clearly the vertex affect the LOS

And then this Q&A change again my opinion "
A4.34, B.6, C.5B, & C.5C

A unit in 62N8 (level -1) wants to bypass the Lt Jungle hex in 62M9 (level -1) along the M8/M9 hexside. There is a Palm tree location in 62M8 (level -1) and another Lt Jungle Hex in 62N8. An enemy unit fires from 62P6 (level 0) tracing LOS to the M9/N8/M8 vertex. The LOS passes through the Open Ground portion of 62N8 but does not pass through M8. Would the LOS be blocked by the inherent Palm trees in 62M8? The larger question would be, when tracing LOS to a vertex made up of a target hex w/out inherent terrain and other hexes w/ inherent terrain, must the LOS pass through the actual hex w/the inherent terrain to be affected by it?

A. The LOS is not blocked. Generally speaking, The LOS must cross the hex (including hexside) to be affected "

So in the end, before my brains collapse, a LOS that passes through exactly the geometrical vertex of one hex of inherent terrain that can cause Hindrance or even block that LOS, is affected by that terrain, YES or NO?

 

[Binchois]

The hindrance applies since the vertex is part of the hexside which is part of the hex as per the definition of Hex in the index:

Hex (the area Inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices)...​

​

This is true in spite of the fact that the unit is technically IN hex M9 while in bypass of it. In it, the LOS is drawn TO the vertex, but does not continue THROUGH the vertex.

The Q&A you cite is about LOS blockage, not about Hindrances.

Remember that LOS tracing is a fairly abstract representation of real life. In reality, that vertex represents just a single point in a spray of fire (at a group of soldiers) that is actually spread across a larger area and across a certain period of time (i.e. not just a barrage of shots at a single point at an exact moment in time).

 

[Eagle4ty]

The hindrance applies since the vertex is part of the hexside which is part of the hex as per the definition of Hex in the index:

Hex (the area Inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices)...​

​

This is true in spite of the fact that the unit is technically IN hex M9 while in bypass of it.

Remember that LOS tracing is a fairly abstract representation of real life. In reality, that vertex represents just a single point in a spray of fire (at a group of soldiers) that is actually spread across a larger area and across a certain period of time (i.e. not just a barrage of shots at a single point at an exact moment in time).

I believe what you meant is the hindrance/LOS-blockage does NOT apply even though the unit is technically moving in hex M9 because the LOS/LOF is traced to the vertex of M8-M9-N8 and does not cross the vertex.

 

[Binchois]

I believe what you meant is the hindrance/LOS-blockage does NOT apply even though the unit is technically moving in hex M9 because the LOS/LOF is traced to the vertex of M8-M9-N8 and does not cross the vertex.

You caught me in mid-edit!

... Really, folks should wait 15 minutes before responding to my posts! I usually write all stream-of-conscience like. Post. Then spend the next 5 minutes actually thinking about things for real.?

The finished product only comes later, but I hope it is worth the wait! ?

 

[Pyth]

"... Really, folks should wait 15 minutes before responding to my posts! I usually write all stream-of-conscience like. Post. Then spend the next 5 minutes actually thinking about things for real.?"

!!!

I find many of my posts follow a 'five stages of grief' sort of pattern...

1. What I think.
2. What I think after reading the rule book.
3. What I think after being corrected about what the rule book said.
4. Going back to what I originally thought but now with parts of the rule book highlighted in RED.
5. What Klas said.

 

[Sparafucil3]

So here is the thing about hex-sides and vertices: they may exist in multiple Locations simultaneously, but the unit you're trying to move or shoot does not. Take away the Orchard for a moment and imagine it was SMOKE instead. Would you pay the +1 movement cost for traversing that vertex? It's even more clear if instead, we place a 200mm FFE:1 in L3. You clearly know what hex you're actually in when you move. Taking this concept to LOS helps to make things clear. So in the instance above, the question to be answered is which of the three hexes that the vertex M8/M9/N9 belongs to are we measuring the LOS to? Since the unit is traversing the M9 hex, we are using the vertex in the M9 hex, not the one that exists in M8. I think of it as the LOS never entering M8 and therefore the Orchard/Palm Trees are NA. Once you have that, the LOS becomes FAR easier to see.

If the LOS passed through that vertex to a hex beyond one of the three hexes that form the vertex, it would be passing through the vertex and create the hindrance (or in this case blockage as the firing unit is at Level 1 and the target is at Level 0).

Now, if you really want to warp your mind, a Wall doesn't block LOS to it's own hex. You can take a Snap Shot across a Wall, to a unit leaving the hex even though you don't have LOS to the Location the unit is trying to move too. Look at that on a map for a moment. -- jim

 

[Ferni]

thank you all, now it's clear