LOS and Cliff Hexsides

aloha_brian

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B11.2 provides the rule on LOS for cliff hexsides.

11.2 The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. For LOS purposes, the black art depiction of a Depression cliff is treated as part of the Depression artwork.

So, the LOS is clear in the following example.

upload_2017-2-14_8-11-31.png

But, is it clear or blocked in the next example below?

upload_2017-2-14_8-13-20.png

In a recent game my opponent (for a similar cliff on a different map) stated it was blocked (and we played it that way because I couldn't really understand 11.2), but I think it is clear. His justification that it is blocked is that B11.2 states "... LOS traced along that hexside..." and this LOS is not 'along that hexside'. My understanding is that if the LOS doesn't cross the dark brown (stays within the serrated black part of the cliff, that it is clear to the same level hexes.

Is there a rule, Perry Sez, or general consensus on if the LOS is clear or blocked?

Thanks,
Brian
 

von Marwitz

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B11.2 The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. For LOS purposes, the black art depiction of a Depression cliff is treated as part of the Depression artwork.
Basically, you quoted it yourself: The LOS has to be traced 'along that hexside', so in your first picture, the LOS is clear, in the second, it is blocked. Your opponent was right.

von Marwitz
 

Binchois

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Basically, you quoted it yourself: The LOS has to be traced 'along that hexside', so in your first picture, the LOS is clear, in the second, it is blocked. Your opponent was right.

von Marwitz
Thanks for clarifying this to me v.M.! I had always read the rule as Brian did. And, yes, this had always upset me as it seemed like a backwards way of illustrating the cliffs and led to all sorts of weird terrain issues - as in our contemporary post, Cliff and Inherent Terrain. Nothing like ASL to make you feel foolish! o_O
 

Robin Reeve

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EDIT: got things wrong (not the first time, ugh!).
 

jrv

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I am not sure that the LOS is blocked in the second case: I don't see any upper hill level of EE3 on the right side of the thread.
The second part of the rule (For LOS purposes, the black art depiction of a Depression cliff is treated as part of the Depression artwork) seems to allow LOS even if it is not strictly along the hexside.
That only applies to depression cliff. This is not a depression cliff. There is a Q&A that says that crest-line cliff depiction in the higher hex is at the higher level and at the lower level in the lower hex.

JR
 

Robin Reeve

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Yep. I just noticed I go things wrong... but you managed to ninja me with a correct answer.
 

Robin Reeve

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There is a Q&A that says that crest-line cliff depiction in the higher hex is at the higher level and at the lower level in the lower hex.
So an LOS touching a cliff hex vertex is blocked... (second case example)
I have played that wrong, as I considered that the whole cliff depiction was at the lower level - including the part in the upper hill level.
 

jrv

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So an LOS touching a cliff hex vertex is blocked... (second case example)
I have played that wrong, as I considered that the whole cliff depiction was at the lower level - including the part in the upper hill level.
Exactly on the hexside is clear, so I would expect exactly through the vertex to be clear too. The second EX does not go exactly through the vertex. It goes far into the hex, and so is blocked.

JR
 

Robin Reeve

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Just an idea for new maps : if the guy who draws it abstains from having any black cliff spilling into the upper hill hex, it would make things more clear.
 

von Marwitz

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Indeed, I have pondered about that, too. But I believe a Depression is not what we see in the example of the OP.

Index:
"Depressions (Gully, Stream, Sunken Road): A6.3 ..."

And:
"A6.3 DEPRESSIONS: Certain terrain types are defined as being relatively narrow slits carved into the surface below ground level. Although they present no obstacle to LOS between units at or above ground level, units IN Depressions are often out of LOS of even relatively nearby higher level units. A unit must be at least one level higher for every hex of range to units IN a Depression to have a LOS to them [EXC: Units with a clear LOS between them through other continuous Depression hexsides (exclusive of vertices) need not count those intervening Depression hexes in determining the necessary elevation advantage]. A unit in a ground level hex always has a LOS INTO an adjacent level -1 Depression hex, but a unit two hexes away must be at level 1 or higher to have a LOS INTO that hex, and a unit three hexes away must be at level 2 or higher. Boards 24 and 25 contain Depressions that change elevation along their length, thus creating several additional LOS possibilities; see B19.5."

I *think* what is referred to is if you have a cliff at one side of a Gully, Stream, Sunken Road or some such. I could be mistaken, though.

von Marwitz

Edit:
Just realized I got double-ninja'ed by JRV and Swiftandsure... Leading a life on the fast lane, aren't ya?
 
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Robin Reeve

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EDIT :If EE3 had no cliff, and there would be level 1 hill hex spilling within its hex, the second case LOS wouldn't be blocked.
 
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jrv

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And strangely, if hill hex FF2 was bordered by a cliff, there would be no LOS possible between two ground level units, if the LOS string enters the hex and only crosses open ground/cliff depictions (e.g from the GG hexrow woods and FF1), whilst the absence of the cliff allows such LOS.
Or, if EE3 had no cliff, and there would be level 1 hill hex spilling within its hex, the second case LOS wouldn't be blocked.
That would depend on where the (non-cliff) crest line was drawn. It could be drawn right at the hex edge, in which case it would block LOS. It could be drawn into hex FF2 like on some boards, in which case LOS would be really blocked. You are conflating the two terrain depictions: cliff depiction touching upper level does not indicate a crest line. Cliff depiction indicates that the hexside is a crest line. Upper-level depiction touching lower-level depiction does indicate a crest line.

JR
 
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