(Location Vote) Asia Pacific ASL Open 2018

[sneo]

Siem Reap isn't "just next door" for most of us, neither was Manila; neither is Singapore or Tokyo. If you happen to live there, great, if you don't, you have to travel.

not sure about Siem Reap or Manila, but Tokyo, Hong Kong and Singapore as well as Melbourne and Sydney are the major transit hubs. getting a hotel on the other hand, is a different question. Locally in Singapore, the tabletop gaming club that APac ASL Tourney was held in 2014 is open to hosting future ASL events.

 

[Will Fleming]

Thanks for the information. Certainly more options here are a good thing.

 

[gulliver62]

Ok, even though it is not likely I would attend I never say its not possible. I voted for Tokyo mostly because I am intimately familiar with it and love the city. Great food, great people, phenomenal transportation and a direct flight from Atlanta. Most of those things probably go for the other 2 also. The other 2, I have never been to but they are certainly on my list of places to visit. Unfortunately, I am still working for a living and am not sure I can work in 3 days of ASL play + vacation time in a new city. Maybe things will change you never know.

 

[bprobst]

getting a hotel on the other hand, is a different question.

That has to be part of a "viable bid". I'm not advocating just picking a city and then waiting for everyone to show up. I'm fully aware that many locations are going to have accommodation issues; whoever is putting a bid together will need to address that in a practical way. (Perhaps some locations may never be able to put together a viable bid because of this; that would be a shame of course but sometimes it can't be helped.)

I should stress that all of my comments here are general points, not a criticism of any particular actual bid.

 

[sneo]

That has to be part of a "viable bid". I'm not advocating just picking a city and then waiting for everyone to show up. I'm fully aware that many locations are going to have accommodation issues; whoever is putting a bid together will need to address that in a practical way. (Perhaps some locations may never be able to put together a viable bid because of this; that would be a shame of course but sometimes it can't be helped.)

I should stress that all of my comments here are general points, not a criticism of any particular actual bid.

agreed.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Hey, folks, many of the topics raised in this thread are issues we've also considered here in Tokyo. Here's how our thinking developed as we tried to prioritize objectives and plan for an event that we hope people will want to attend.

ASLers are spread thin everywhere, but certainly fewer and farther between in Asia-Pacific when compared to North America or Europe. There are three significant concentrations of players in the region - Australia/New Zealand, and China and Japan, each somewhat isolated. Support for the hobby is strong enough in the latter two countries that the rule book has been translated into their local languages. Australia can probably claim the most competitive level of face-to-face play. Elsewhere around the region, the player base has grown in Singapore since 2010, although a city of that size (with a sense of it's own WWII history) has room to increase much further. Likewise, Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines also ought to be fertile ground for the game, but as yet presence is limited.

Distance and language issues meant that until recently the different ASL communities in the region were disconnected from each other. Online resources and VASL have helped to close this gap. The tournaments we've held in 2014, 2016 and 2017 took this a step further, giving players of different backgrounds opportunities to make new friendships during a memorable, concentrated dose of competitive play. However, we still haven't built enduring bridges between our three strongest points of presence that will foster growth for the whole region. This will happen when significant numbers of our ANZ, Chinese and Japanese players regularly travel into each others' countries looking for old friends and new challenges. Right now, the most important thing that regional events can do for the hobby here is to bring as many players as possible of all nationalities and levels of play together in one room for three or four days of intense ASL enjoyment. Returning participants will transmit their experiences to their regular opponents afterward. Competitive atmosphere is also important, but let's face it, there are plenty of other events around the globe that players can attend if they want to test themselves against top ASL talent. Let's work on building our numbers first. Competition will sharpen naturally as a result.

Factors that contributed to the success of the last three events have come into focus - organizer(s) dedication, domestic participation and organizer support, and foreign participation. The last question, which we're testing with this poll and other inquiries, is how many players could be expected to come from outside the host country, because of course it can't be a regional tournament otherwise. At the same time, the "foreign invaders" should be met by equal or greater numbers of local participants, representing a cross-section of talent in the country. Because the number of visitors will always be limited to those with the time and budget to make the trip in any given year, domestic participants insure that brackets are full. These players also supply more hands to help the organizers prepare, to make certain that all visiting players are welcomed and aided, and to keep the event running smoothly throughout. Organizers must be exceptional communicators and project managers, priming and timing all the moving parts and making certain that everyone (including themselves) is having a fine time. Hosts with the most.

Any city or country in which we decide to host a tournament should be expected to receive a bump in player participation in the months after the event. New and inexperienced players, both foreign and domestic, should be encouraged to attend. 72 to 96 hours of non-stop ASL is bound to make a lasting impression, particularly when played in an atmosphere of fellowship. If we can turn a positive first experience into lifelong dedication to the hobby, all participants and the region as a whole benefit.

For the Japanese ASL community (over 100 strong), this means giving many of them their first exposure to overseas players and different play styles. An event with international participation will broaden the horizon of the hobby for them, give them access to new contacts and resources, and allow them to test themselves against new players and differing styles of play. Though often shy in new encounters and experiences, once engaged they tend to stay engaged. It's my personal hope that we'll see much more interaction between Japan and other ASL centers in the region following a Tokyo event.

It takes 16 players to fill the brackets of a four-round tournament. So far, our best turnout was 22 (or 23?) in Manila. The next plateau to reach is 32 players in five rounds. This may be a stretch to achieve in 2018, but goals worth striving for always ought to make us stretch. Any and all sites that show potential to approach that level of participation deserve community support.

 

[Thunderchief]

100+ Japanese ASL players - that's impressive.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

100+ in Japan is truly impressive!

I have seen 'evidence' of that as I located the website where someone has translated the entire ASLRB + that of the HASLs, nicely formatted, graphics and all.

It's a bit distressing therefore as I have only interacted with 2 of them since 2013. One of them said he has met and played George B 10 years ago. Nor have they participated in either of the 2 regional VASL leagues. Nor have they joined our regional tournaments in the last 3 years. The monthly Shimo-Kitazawa game day has seen a consistent 4 sign up, no where close to the 100 you quoted. I don't see those numbers in this voting on GS nor on the Meetup site where George announced this in English and Japanese (6 signed up) and where he regularly posts Tokyo events.

Are they even willing to be exposed to us if this is in Tokyo?

 

[GeorgeBates]

Are they even willing to be exposed to us if this is in Tokyo?

This reminds me of the scene in The Seven Samurai (and in the original Magnificent Seven) when they arrive at the village, only to find it seemingly deserted. Kikuchiyo (Chico) sounds the bandit alarm (church bell), and once the villagers pour out of their homes in panic, he shames them for not welcoming the samurai (gunslingers) until they thought they were in danger. Well, the villagers will be along.


That post was not supposed to be about Tokyo alone, but since Jack asked here are a couple of clarifications:

• The 100 or so known players nationwide are spread throughout the archipelago (roughly the size of California), there's a cluster in Sapporo, another group in Osaka - Kyoto - Kobe and yet more in points elsewhere. My personal mailing list for the Tokyo metro region contains 27 names. Some of them are non-Japanese residents, some play the game only occasionally. The primary ASL forum in this country is based on a members-only gaming site called "Must Attack." Here's a screen shot of the top of the page, the topics are father below the resources listed on the right. Stanley Neo and I are the only non-Japanese members. Of the 103 listed there, I am connected to 13. Not sure how many might be dormant. As with GameSquad, the 80-20 rule applies.

​

• Jack is right that our latest Sunday game days have been under-attended, our best was 8 since we started about 18 months ago. Difficulties with the venue (cost, hours) became so great we gave up last month and attended a Yokohama Simulation Gaming Association (YSGA) event instead. ASL turnout there was 9, including a match of Festung Budapest 14, "At The Narrow Passage." We've decided that for now we'll continue to attend there, even though it is farther from Chiba and our friends on the east side of town.
  
• Four native Japanese players have crossed into the Meetup since we began recruiting here. I cross-post announcements into "Must Attack" as best I can. I know of only one native Japanese ASLer registered on GameSquad. Language is a barrier both ways, but in face-to-face play ASL provides a common base for enjoyment.
  
• Sadly, I have yet to meet any Japanese ASL players outside the Tokyo metro, although we are starting to make up for that with a monthly Skype call/chat, and I have a VASL match with a new friend in Osaka set for next Saturday (J67, "Lawless Roads"). One of our hopes is that a big Tokyo event would draw in players from elsewhere around the country for some face-to-face encounters that are long overdue.

In short, some of the motivators for a Tokyo event are to establish more lasting personal connections, to broaden horizons for both domestic and foreign participants, create more exposure in Japan for ASL communities elsewhere, and to enable the Japan ASL community to contribute more to the hobby elsewhere. More indications of interest from the guys here are forthcoming, as likely will more responses from outside. Momentum builds over time. Our go/no-go deadline is 30 November.

 

[von Marwitz]

Altogether interesting information about the development of the ASL community in SEA.

Thank you for that.

von Marwitz

 

[hongkongwargamer]

That post wasn't about Tokyo until I came across that 100 figure.

I sure wish 1 out of the 100 participated one of our two VASL tourneys or met us in Singapore, Manila or Siem Reap.

Or your gathering in Tokyo.

If that's how big the community is .. and given the availability of the full set of the rules in Japanese, perhaps we shouldn't be so "self centered" as to think that they are the "villagers" and we are the "samurais".

It's quite likely that the "villagers" already have regular tournaments and have been socializing amongst themselves.

The guy who wrote me plays mostly FtF but also does VASL / Skype and has been playing for 10 years.

Perhaps it's us who needs to join them? (Wonder if they will let us play ) Perhaps the four in Tokyo ARE the "villagers" and you need to join their tournaments - so that they might recipricate?

Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with having our tourney anywhere, least of all Tokyo .. but I am recoiling at the (unconscious) notion that the "natives" need saving.



Jack

This reminds me of the scene in The Seven Samurai (and in the original Magnificent Seven) when they arrive at the village, only to find it seemingly deserted. Kikuchiyo (Chico) sounds the bandit alarm (church bell), and once the villagers pour out of their homes in panic, he shames them for not welcoming the samurai (gunslingers) until they thought they were in danger. Well, the villagers will be along.
View attachment 2614View attachment 2618

That post was not supposed to be about Tokyo alone, but since Jack asked here are a couple of clarifications:

• The 100 or so known players nationwide are spread throughout the archipelago (roughly the size of California), there's a cluster in Sapporo, another group in Osaka - Kyoto - Kobe and yet more in points elsewhere. My personal mailing list for the Tokyo metro region contains 27 names. Some of them are non-Japanese residents, some play the game only occasionally. The primary ASL forum in this country is based on a members-only gaming site called "Must Attack." Here's a screen shot of the top of the page, the topics are father below the resources listed on the right. Stanley Neo and I are the only non-Japanese members. Of the 103 listed there, I am connected to 13. Not sure how many might be dormant. As with GameSquad, the 80-20 rule applies.

View attachment 2617​

• Jack is right that our latest Sunday game days have been under-attended, our best was 8 since we started about 18 months ago. Difficulties with the venue (cost, hours) became so great we gave up last month and attended a Yokohama Simulation Gaming Association (YSGA) event instead. ASL turnout there was 9, including a match of Festung Budapest 14, "At The Narrow Passage." We've decided that for now we'll continue to attend there, even though it is farther from Chiba and our friends on the east side of town.
  
• Four native Japanese players have crossed into the Meetup since we began recruiting here. I cross-post announcements into "Must Attack" as best I can. I know of only one native Japanese ASLer registered on GameSquad. Language is a barrier both ways, but in face-to-face play ASL provides a common base for enjoyment.
  
• Sadly, I have yet to meet any Japanese ASL players outside the Tokyo metro, although we are starting to make up for that with a monthly Skype call/chat, and I have a VASL match with a new friend in Osaka set for next Saturday (J67, "Lawless Roads"). One of our hopes is that a big Tokyo event would draw in players from elsewhere around the country for some face-to-face encounters that are long overdue.

In short, some of the motivators for a Tokyo event are to establish more lasting personal connections, to broaden horizons for both domestic and foreign participants, create more exposure in Japan for ASL communities elsewhere, and to enable the Japan ASL community to contribute more to the hobby elsewhere. More indications of interest from the guys here are forthcoming, as likely will more responses from outside. Momentum builds over time. Our go/no-go deadline is 30 November.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with having our tourney anywhere, least of all Tokyo .. but I am recoiling at the (unconscious) notion that the "natives" need saving.

Oops, they certainly don't need saving, and I should be careful to avoid that. I was just thinking about the "Where is everybody?" question, which deserves an answer.

Now, have there been ASL tournaments in Japan yet? Not in my memory. Certainly none that I have seen posted in the sites I visit. In my experience, most face-to-face ASL is played in the context of larger gaming groups like YSGA. Can't say more than that, but will check with some fellas who might know more than me.

As for Japanese players traveling outside the country to play, there's a lot of considerations that would go in to making that decision, especially when comparing the certainties of domestic play against what they might or might not find in an unknown place with unknown opponents. Once the ice is broken, which we aim to do, the traffic both ways ought to increase.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

.
As for Japanese players traveling outside the country to play, there's a lot of considerations that would go in to making that decision, especially when comparing the certainties of domestic play against what they might or might not find in an unknown place with unknown opponents. Once the ice is broken, which we aim to do, the traffic both ways ought to increase.

Same considerations for the rest of us every year!!

 

[GeorgeBates]

Same considerations for the rest of us every year!!

The STC (Spouse Task Check), BTC (Budget Task Check) and WTC (Work Task Check, actually probably 1WTC) are the same. I'll let people better-qualified than me talk about other elements of the decision.

 

[GeorgeBates]

100+ Japanese ASL players - that's impressive.

Don't look at me, it was that way when I got here.

 

[sneo]

Language is a barrier both ways, but in face-to-face play ASL provides a common base for enjoyment.

I joined MustAttack and Velonica War College slightly more than a year ago, I can see the activity of the Japanese and Chinese ASL groups. The main issue is most likely communication. The de facto language is English, which, most players use. Learning Nihongo or Mandarin Chinese to effectively communicate with hidden groups of Japanese/Chinese players is a tall task for most existing players. I personally feel uncomfortable using Mandarin to have an ASL game with a Chinese even though I am well versed in the language.

so, while the player base of these two major countries may be larger than the other APac countries (of course, there is no doubt ANZ players speak English), probably the more effective way to compute domestic player base to support ASL tournaments are those who are actively visible and willing to participate. an example is Singapore: we have at least a handful (more than five) of Singaporean ASL players who are inactive (in that sense they do not actively look for players or have not played a single game of ASL in over a year) and therefore, not helpful in organsing tournaments. In fact, the most helpful ASL players in Singapore to organise 2014 ASL tournament is not even local Singaporeans (thank you George!).

 

[Alan Smee]

Summary of discussion yesterday between George, Aaron, Will and me re the 2018 competition:
We agreed that a second round of voting to be taken on Games Squad with Jackson as organizer, just between Singapore and Tokyo. Voting will be non-anonymous, so as to ensure reasonable verification, and should close one month from the start of polling. The main question should be:
"Where would you prefer the 2018 APAC ASL Open?" with options of Singapore or Tokyo

Whichever gains the most votes will be the selected venue. An alternative system of % likelihood of attending was suggested by Will and Aaron. A simpler one-person one-vote system was supported by George and me. We agreed that this competition be labelled the “2018 APAC ASL Open competition”, and that for the sake of unity no alternatives with a similar title/name be run, so as to ensure the maximum participation. Aaron, Will and myself strongly encouraged that the "tentative Tokyo" event will be removed from the Meetup, so as to avoid any confusion, but this was not supported by George.

A secondary question was also discussed re dates. Thinking after the discussion, I'd suggest asking separately for each potential venue, given that date availability may vary by venue. The following is suggested for Singapore, based on avoidance of public holidays etc. I'll let our Tokyo boosters decide upon an appropriate question for their venue.
"If the venue chosen is Singapore, which date would you prefer?": with options of July 14-16, July 28-30 or August 4-6

 

[sneo]

thank you folks for the hard work in organising the 2018 ASL APac tourney.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Hi, friends. I'm going to offer some contradictory opinions to Alan's earlier post and try to clarify what we're about here in Tokyo. After that, I'm going to step back and take a time-out from any public or private discussions on the matter save for the planning going on with my colleagues here. There are some fundamental disagreements between different venue organizers about objectives and planning for an event that is intended to create FUN for as many people as possible. Since FUN is all that matters, the assumption remains that everyone participating in our conversations intends to have FUN, and to make things as FUN as possible for others. Like the President said,

Aaron, Will and myself strongly encouraged that the "tentative Tokyo" event will be removed from the Meetup, so as to avoid any confusion, but this was not supported by George.

George didn't just not support this suggestion, he made a counter-suggestion:
Since we usually manage event attendance using the Meetup anyway, every organizer wishing to attract participants to their venue ought to put their event details on the Meetup so that those interested can compare them side-by-side and make their (public) indications of interest. Some might say they're interested in both. We can use any number of fora, including GameSquad, or other polling methods to supplement that data, and those fora can provide a link back to the Meetup, membership in which is open to all.
Another suggestion that came up was that 16 participants needed to be a threshold. If an event can't fill brackets for four rounds, it needs to go back to the drawing board. Tokyo's target date for hitting this threshold has been and remains 30 November.
In an evaluation of two candidate sites, there are three possible results:

• Site A hits the 16-player threshold and but Site B does not - in this event, some of those interested in Site B could still possibly attend the Site A event
• Neither site hits the threshold - time to hit the reset button and take a fresh look; maybe other venues step forward for consideration
• Both sides come in above the threshold and we evaluate what to do with our embarrassment of riches

Those who disagree with this approach are free to express their misgivings here, which I will read, but I will leave any concurring or dissenting responses to other voices. Personally, in no case do I see the success of one site taking anything away from any other, and to the extent we see more and more interest in both, it would demonstrate the vibrancy of the hobby in our region and make us more attractive.

We agreed that this competition be labelled the “2018 APAC ASL Open competition”, and that for the sake of unity no alternatives with a similar title/name be run, so as to ensure the maximum participation.

Until we can boast turnouts similar to our North American, European and Australian counterparts, maybe we have other work to do before trying to impose some kind of unity on a vast and varied region. Perhaps veterans players need to focus on player recruitment, creating vibrant communities with viable player bases, and connecting those communities. Then we'll have something to unify. Today, any event in the region featuring players from more than one country competing is de facto a regional tournament, and we should applaud their success. More FUN events can be the glue that holds us together.

A quick backgrounder:
Talks in Tokyo about hosting an event in 2018 go back to last spring, with the first communications to people of this outside the country circa April. Prior to Angkorfest, several of the participants there were privately invited (so as not to steal from that event's thunder) by mail to express interest in attending our event here if we went forward. Individual reactions to this communication were decidedly mixed. Those for, against or ambivalent can (and have) spoken up here. However, it also became apparent somewhat after the event that there were other organizers who wanted to propose other venues. Tokyo unreservedly welcomes _any_ proposal, and would never presume to ask another site to alter or suspend its plans in deference to ours. Every site's planners are entitled to go about their business as they see fit, and they deserve all the support we can give. Let 1000 flowers bloom!

That's all from Tokyo for now. See you in other fora!

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I guess the vote has just been called to an abrupt end.

Not to forget .. there's one vote from Dave Wilson for Singapore and one vote from Raphael Ferry for Siem Reap.

The final numbers at this point is

• 12 for Singapore
  
• 11 for Tokyo
• 4 for Siem Reap

Since George Bates does not want to do a second around of voting to determine a majority, nor does he want to work with the Singapore crew, it appears at the moment that my involvement with organising Asia Pacific tournaments has ended.

To those who responded and voted. THANKYOU.

I was hoping that a vote from the community will bring the organisers together amidst eloquent words of fun, friendship and community. (And it appeared to have the support from all until the results of the vote became more apparent.)

Gents, all the best.

Rgds Jack