Loads of testing done TU update

Wodin

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After a break for abit I just finished several days of testing and poor Scott now has 150+ emails from me with saves\screenies and suggestions.

We are very very frustrated with the slow process with TU. Our team is tiny..and I mean tiny and where dealing with code that will not give at all and the slightest thing\error will throw everything out and has knock on effects..Scott has had some terrible personal set backs aswell last year. I do know he is very frustrated with TU progress and honestly work doesn't stop on it, just it's one step forward two steps back sometimes..othertimes things seem OK but we try and improve something and then wham we are faced with loads of issues again.

I hope everyone realises that TU is a beta and a WIP. Also don't fear work hasn't and will not stop on it until we get the game we all want. I will say some nice cosmetic improvements have been made with regards to fire arrows and movement arrows etc aswell as new formation arrows. We also have sound fixed at last, and guess what we now have units fighting at realistic combat ranges!! Also a new set of options for terrain placement is being implemented and you can increase the "roughness" within a hex so you creating small elevations within a hex giving tanks hull down chances and Inf cover etc..We are trying to make the terrain less flat and more realistic. We have rubble working and craters showing on the map(still needs abit of tweaking).

The bad stuff well we have alot of errors and bugs again, Ive caught most and Scott now has them to deal with.

I did manage to play 15 turns of a small scenario I made and it was fun..even with the bugs..(However when I first tried the latest test patch I was less than convinced I'd have fun as certain aspects aren't right with new bugs introduced). The combat seemed to play out right I had no qualms with it to be honest. I did feel the game needs alot more SOP's for units and passed what I thought was needed on to Scott.

Anyway my testing on this latest Beta has finished, not sure I can do anymore. Scott now has the task of reading all my emails and going through it all..

I'm truly hoping by the end of the year the game will be playing pretty well. I also hope that we have some new features in that improve the game experience aswell, though as I said Scott needs to go through my suggestions.

I know it's been a long haul and I also no the recent patches haven't given anyone a playable game as such. Unfortunately I was out of the link. Next patch that gets released I will tell Scott to give to me to test pre release and make sure he doesn't touch it again which can lead to other issues.

Finally as I said the team is small..well it's Scott the coder and designer, Jeff database and working on ACD 3 and me the tester..there are other testers but very little comes back these days. Also remember I was not testing for about 4 or so months last year.

One day the game will be what we want..I can't promise when All I know is Scott is constantly working on it (A change to the game can take two months or more fulltime work) and he wont finish until the game as the way he envisions it to be.
 

turbidite

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Thanks for the update Wodin !

Unfortunately, as written in this old thread about POA2 (http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?74024-Poa2-A-Mature-Sim-That-Is-Now-A-Winner&p=969213&viewfull=1#post969213), if the patches are not better quickly, there might be (almost) nobody home again by the time the bugs are fixed.

I don't want to sound overly critical however feedback on the latest patches is likely to discourage potential buyer and early buyers might be a tad miffed to have a 40 bucks game (originally 50 !) that is a "work in progress". It's true that it has nearly no equivalent (Command Ops...) so diehards will stay however it's not going to be a great revenue stream for Scott (not so long after the initial release there were hints of mission packs and even of the second part covering 1943-1945 which was silly considering the current state of TU).

Anyway I hope Scott's personal problems will have a happy ending in 2013 and we'll get a great serie of patches.
 

Redwolf

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Maybe we should collect some cash (as in lots of it), start a kickstarter campaign or indigogo campaign and just buy a licensed copy of the source from him?
 

Wodin

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Unlikely, it's his baby. Though I'm sure if it comes to the point he does decide to retire might be an idea. I've offered more help and he says he will chat with me. SO lets see.

I do understand peoples frustrations. The game went on release way to early I feel. However I wasn't around at that point. All I can do is test away again and send Scott everything I find. I sent him a quick run down of all my emails and I came across roughly 11 Major issues and a few more minor..a fair few queries and lots of suggestions\requests.

As for the mission disks well that was me giving out more info than I should I suppose. Things like this are there for the future once the engine is sorted. I do know there are plans for another game infact a few games long term and I know Scott expected to be getting there alot quicker than has happened. Nothing along those lines have changed but when it happens I can't say at all. All I can do is help as much as I can to hurry it along.

Scott I'm sure is aware of how people feel, he also doesn't want to give up not only as it's his baby but also he wants the paying customer to get the game they deserve. I think he is hoping once it is working the way it should do and ADC3 is finished so people can create their own maps that interest will pick up. Also again once boxed off when we get to "the other stuff" this also will spark a renewed interest. I'm only to aware of the damage done here with TU and POA2 and I'm sure Scott is even more aware I'm sticking with it because I know eventually the damn thing will be an amazing game\sim unlike nay other out there.

It's a wait and see and I say keep the game on hold\ice..one day it will play the way Scott envisioned and then we will have something special, how long that will take I'm not so sure. As I said some improvements are obvious now but there are nagging pain in the backside issues still, I'm partly to blame for the last two patches as I stopped testing..I'm back now so hopefully things will improve quicker.

The second part to TU though has never been mentioned and if it has it isn't true, thats along long way down the path. A sequel is in the works but not the second part of TU.

Mission packs\Campaigns are the big ones I'm hoping will bring people to TU when they eventually come along, but we need to get TU working and working well first.
 
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76mm

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Wodin, thanks for the update. I have not touched the game since shortly after release and frankly feel that I have been completely fleeced. I don't mind supporting game developers if they bring something out with a few bugs, but this game went well beyond that. I'm also rather concerned to hear that there is a sequel in the works when this game remains rather raw. Finally, I won't really be interested in this game until we can create our own maps, but I have been hearing about ADC3 for how many years now and at this point don't have much faith that it will ever be released.
 
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thewood

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This is kind of deja vu all over again for me. I bought POA2 on release years ago and it took a good four years to straighten that out to be a decent game. I thought this one would leverage all that work and angst from POA2. Instead, it came out in a pretty sorry state and POA2 seems to have been set back somewhat with 2.5.

I am not sure what to make of this situation. I have always loved HPS, but POA2 and TU have made me rethink this. I hate saying that because there are so few real wargame developers left, but I hate supporting bad products, even from good companies.
 

navman74

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I am entirely sympathetic..I understand the personal issues, and the domino effect changes in code sometimes have. I am also quite willing to pay to support a good idea.
Having said that, where the understanding stops, is when a designer who apparently knows that his design is a work in progress, gives no feedback for months at a time to the customers who purchased it. I would have bought this game, the design of which I love, even knowing it was a beta release assuming as with most betas that you can have back and forth input with the designer, especially considering that we paid HIM to be testers. I still have high hopes for this game, so still will stand by it, but I agree with the poster above who implied POA2 has gotten worse with this...I had POA2 able to run quite well, and even in the initial releases of TU, I had things running..now, cannot run the game more than 2-3 minutes ! at most! before ctd. Now it sits on my computer, I still often look at it, run over its manual, etc, thinking"wow..great design!!" then come back to earth in much the same way as when I was told as a child there would be flying cars by now lol.
In short, I keep my fingers crossed, but won't hold my breath..
Jason, for your part, thank you for giving updates at least and thanks for trying to help this game reach the point where we know it CAN.
~R
 
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Wodin

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Navman..I know Scott is quite..he thinks his time is best spent on the game rather than on forums..he is putting loads and loads of hours into it..now I'm back on board I will try and keep you more upto date..I stopped because people got abit miffed last time me saying it should be out soon and it still taking awhile..but I will try and keep you all informed abit more.

Scott is pushing through my 130 emails after my last testing session..once I get the next test patch an dgo through it if things work fine I will tell him to release it..I will however be testing the life out of it again whether it's released or not..fingers crossed it works well enough to release..the last couple of patchs have been bad news..As I said I wasn't helping for awhile..but I'm back on board.

All I can say is eventually the damn thing will play the way we all want it too as we all see the potential..I have also sent Scott a decent list of what I feel are much need improviments..esp regarding SOP's..

76mm jeff is solely working on ADC 3 and it's around 75% done..Oh and Scott has added a new feature to help quickly create maps and place terrain features etc aswell as set the roughness of a hex..which will add alot to the tactical side as tanks can go hulldown within a hex and Inf can hide within the dips etc..the roughness you can set how many meters you want it to be..remember every tank and solider is pinpointed within a hex at the moment.
 
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High Krausen

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I occasionally stick my head in here to see if there is any progress...there never appears to be any...I hope HPS is managing to stay solvent, but I'm leery of giving them any more money because it seems that TU was underdeveloped and the financial support of myself and others who contributed to their retail software development program has certainly dried up by now.
 

76mm

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Navman..I know Scott is quite..he thinks his time is best spent on the game rather than on forums..he is putting loads and loads of hours into it..
At this point I think that time spent by Scott on the forum, mending fences so to speak, would be time well-spent--has he *EVER* posted here? As far as I can tell, he put out a half-baked game and then disappeared without a word; frankly I think it is completely inexcusable. At the very least, I think he owes paying customers (i) an apology; (ii) his view on the current state of the game; and (iii) what the future holds in store, if anything. Is that really too much to ask???
 

Wodin

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Got another test exe today..alot of recoding has gone on..test seems way more stable than the last one. Again work hasn't stopped on this..small team with a highly complex game means things take awhile. Neither me or Scott will give up until it's done though.

Play something else for abit..the next patch will be worth it..but even after that lots of work and new features need to be put into place. I will say the next patch will have a new feature where if you open a scenario in set up you can quickly adjust and add terrain features to the map and increase\decrease terrain roughness.

We have a new tester who is very knowledgeable..some may know him as RockinHarry over at Matrix Forums this will help me alot.

I need to go through all stock scenarios and make them more interesting...lots of data work needs to be looked at and fixed\tweaked..and then the usual testing.

Anyway signing out now.
 

76mm

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Wodin, thanks for the update, but seriously, why the **** won't Scott himself bother to post here? It is well beyond time....
 

navman74

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I do not know Scott, but I do consider Jason (Wodin) a friend, so I will base from that, my decision to be patient here. TU is a game that set the bar for itself quite high..and generally those are the type of games I like. They also are most likely to have a lot of growing pains, as often they are a bit ahead of the curve in many areas. That said, I do also think it would be nice for the developer to poke in and say "Thanks for being patient with my work" or something like that. It was not a cheap game, and in many ways was not ready for release, when released. There is a game "Armoredbrigade" which is also following a pretty ambitious path, and that one is getting testing by giving free downloads while in beta, to add to the feedback. I think that would be a better way to go, but since instead we were charged to betatest a product, I do not think it is asking too much to at least acknowledge us.
Wodin, you and Harry both see a great example on the other forum you mention, from Dave Arjuna, who goes so far in the other extreme of helpful, responsive customer service that I frankly am amazed he gets ANY production done.
Anyway, I will be patient here..I really do still have a lot of hope for this game, if it can be 'right'...this game would be one of the best WW2 games out there.
 

Wodin

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I can' t force Scott onto a forum. I promise you he is constantly working on the game. You will see a fair few changes the next patch. I do understand people's grievances and it's one reason I stay away from here these days. Not sure I want to get the flak.

The main problem issue with TU is no other game comes anywhere near as complex and thats including Command Ops. That has serious knock on effect when testing is involved and changes are need etc etc.

Scott said he wont give up on it..ever..it's just sadly taking a long time to get right and improved etc..for instance the combat range thing..at the minute ranges are more realistic..but in doing so the accuracy got borked. That is just a data table issue..but the data table entries are many. Also I'm bugging Scott over the whole map issue. Hi Fi combat resolutions etc with abstract hex terrain clashes. Scott made a new map feature..I've tried it out and I'm not keen. He spent ages doing it aswell. It also has some issues, one aspect is great but the adding terrain features isn't working right. I honestly feel some serious map work is needed on all stock scenarios..even think we should go down to a 25m grid underneath the terrain..so maps no longer have hexes etc..but look more like real maps. This will help the range issue and give alot more fidelity to the game. The game already monitors units to the meter within the hex so it's just a case of making the maps. However we need ADC3 for this..and thats only 75% complete but being worked on by someone other than Scott. New SOP's are needed. Some SOP enhancement will be in the next patch, but more needs to be done (this is my opinion though).

Should the game have been released when it was..not for me to say..but if I had been around and working with Scott I'd have definitely voiced my opinion on the matter. Will the game fulfill it's potential, if I wasn't hopeful I wouldn't be doing all the testing I'm doing now. Will the next patch be an improvement? SO far it's a resounding yes. Will it be finished and it's potential fulfilled..no. Thats a fair bit away yet (again my opinion).

I do know Scott really wants players to be able to create their own maps..and I also know one of the team is going to have to redo the stock maps to make them more interesting. I'd love to be able to have the tools and skills at the minute to revamp the whole map thing but at the minute I'm not in a position to radically alter them. Both Harry and myself know it's important.

Anyway signing off for now.
 

navman74

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I can' t force Scott onto a forum. I promise you he is constantly working on the game. You will see a fair few changes the next patch. I do understand people's grievances and it's one reason I stay away from here these days. Not sure I want to get the flak.

The main problem issue with TU is no other game comes anywhere near as complex and thats including Command Ops. That has serious knock on effect when testing is involved and changes are need etc etc.

Scott said he wont give up on it..ever..it's just sadly taking a long time to get right and improved etc..for instance the combat range thing..at the minute ranges are more realistic..but in doing so the accuracy got borked. That is just a data table issue..but the data table entries are many. Also I'm bugging Scott over the whole map issue. Hi Fi combat resolutions etc with abstract hex terrain clashes. Scott made a new map feature..I've tried it out and I'm not keen. He spent ages doing it aswell. It also has some issues, one aspect is great but the adding terrain features isn't working right. I honestly feel some serious map work is needed on all stock scenarios..even think we should go down to a 25m grid underneath the terrain..so maps no longer have hexes etc..but look more like real maps. This will help the range issue and give alot more fidelity to the game. The game already monitors units to the meter within the hex so it's just a case of making the maps. However we need ADC3 for this..and thats only 75% complete but being worked on by someone other than Scott. New SOP's are needed. Some SOP enhancement will be in the next patch, but more needs to be done (this is my opinion though).

Should the game have been released when it was..not for me to say..but if I had been around and working with Scott I'd have definitely voiced my opinion on the matter. Will the game fulfill it's potential, if I wasn't hopeful I wouldn't be doing all the testing I'm doing now. Will the next patch be an improvement? SO far it's a resounding yes. Will it be finished and it's potential fulfilled..no. Thats a fair bit away yet (again my opinion).

I do know Scott really wants players to be able to create their own maps..and I also know one of the team is going to have to redo the stock maps to make them more interesting. I'd love to be able to have the tools and skills at the minute to revamp the whole map thing but at the minute I'm not in a position to radically alter them. Both Harry and myself know it's important.

Anyway signing off for now.
Thanks Jason, I have seen your (and Harry's)dedication in the other forum, and I will take that as a sign good things are coming. I KNOW you are wanting this game to be "perfect" and if you are still around, it must mean you see the potential as well.
 

Wodin

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Correct Sir. I left it for awhile last year. However I got back into it last November and have been helping intensely since.
 
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