I realize that this is a subjective question, but what is the average time it takes to learn ASL? There are boardgames out there that claim to be as detailed as ASL without the volume of rules and I'm curious if ASL is really that detailed. Why invest the time in learning ASL when other games are offering the same detail but with only 10-25 pages of rules? I'm not looking to start a flame war but rather gain insight so I can make a final decision. Thanks in advance.
Learning time for ASL and detail
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Anonymous
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Learning ASL isn't a matter of time, it's a matter of games. The more you play, the faster you learn.
Also, you need to define learning. If it means knowing enough of the game to play simple scenarios, then you'll know quite a bit after 5-10 games. If you want to learn all that the system has to offer (vehicles, ordance, night fighting, desert warfare, PTO, caves, paratroopers & gliders, etc), then you're looking at a lot more games.
As for the level of detail of ASL, there are NO games that are more detailed. I've been gaming for 20+ years. I've played everything from RPGs to Computer games, to board game to wargames to card games, and I've yet to see anything come remotely close to ASL's level of realism.
Just because I'm curious, what other games claim to be as detailed?
NAt
Also, you need to define learning. If it means knowing enough of the game to play simple scenarios, then you'll know quite a bit after 5-10 games. If you want to learn all that the system has to offer (vehicles, ordance, night fighting, desert warfare, PTO, caves, paratroopers & gliders, etc), then you're looking at a lot more games.
As for the level of detail of ASL, there are NO games that are more detailed. I've been gaming for 20+ years. I've played everything from RPGs to Computer games, to board game to wargames to card games, and I've yet to see anything come remotely close to ASL's level of realism.
Just because I'm curious, what other games claim to be as detailed?
NAt
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Define time.
1. Time to learn the basic infantry combat and movement.
2. Combat and movement of vehicles
3. Combat and movement of guns (AT guns, mortars, artillery, etc...)
4. The rest of the stuff (night, caves, desert, etc...)
Regarding the games that claim to have the same level of detail 2 come to mind right off hand, ATS and Lock N' Load. Advanced Tobruk System (ATS) is the child of CH's Combat series joined with AH's Tobruk system. The scale is the same as ASL with the 2nd edition of the rules will, if not out already, be released in their Arnhem boxed set. Lock N' Load is not out yet but is scheduled to be released this month. A game of squad level tactics in Vietnam, Lock N' Load has both gorgeous maps and counters.
Like you, I have been gaming for over 20 years and now have a limited amount of time to game and would like to make the most out of it.
Again, I'm not looking to start a great debate over which system is better but hear from the guys who know ASL and get their point of view.
1. Time to learn the basic infantry combat and movement.
2. Combat and movement of vehicles
3. Combat and movement of guns (AT guns, mortars, artillery, etc...)
4. The rest of the stuff (night, caves, desert, etc...)
Regarding the games that claim to have the same level of detail 2 come to mind right off hand, ATS and Lock N' Load. Advanced Tobruk System (ATS) is the child of CH's Combat series joined with AH's Tobruk system. The scale is the same as ASL with the 2nd edition of the rules will, if not out already, be released in their Arnhem boxed set. Lock N' Load is not out yet but is scheduled to be released this month. A game of squad level tactics in Vietnam, Lock N' Load has both gorgeous maps and counters.
Like you, I have been gaming for over 20 years and now have a limited amount of time to game and would like to make the most out of it.
Again, I'm not looking to start a great debate over which system is better but hear from the guys who know ASL and get their point of view.
Anonymous
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I hear that. So much gaming to do, so little time.
I only started playing ASL a few months ago, so the learning experience is still quite fresh in my mind.
It probably took me 25 hours to get a good grasp of the basic rules. Figure about 10 hours of reading Chapter A, B and K, and trying some of the exercises out on the board with actual counters, and about 15 hours of gaming (roughly 5 scenarios).
At this point, I can get through a basic game without looking at the rule book too much. I do need the Chapter A and B separators, but then again, who doesn't.
I haven't played with vehicle rules, Ordnance or special rules yet.
It's taking me a while to learn ASL for one reason: I don't have large blocks of time to dedicate to ASL. I can play everyday, but only for a short period of time. That's why Combat Mission is so awesome.
I'm going to have to try PBEM ASL at some point, see how that goes.
Nat
Pitman
Forum Guru
Jeff Seiken and I had both played Squad Leader "back in the day," and had read through the ASL rules a few times over the years, so when we started to learn ASL, about 2 1/2 years ago, we weren't starting off completely fresh. However, we each took one month to intensively read the rulebook and learn how to play the basics--infantry, vehicles (no Chap E, no OBA, etc.). Then we started to play each other. The first scenario--Under the Noel Trees--we spent much more time looking up rules than actually playing. However, things rapidly progressed after that and we never looked back.
SamB
Shut up and play!
One of the Big advantages of ASL in this context is the availability of opponents. Post a note here, tell us where you are and chances are decent that there's someone near you who already plays ASL and will be willing to show you the ropes.
Bar none, the best way to learn is to read chapter A and B and play someone who already knows the system.
If you don't have anyone near you, you can use VASL (VASL.org). Its shareware and it allows you to watch other people play - and to play people from all over the world.
You can be up and playing in a few hours... Read Chapter A and B, contact a local or download VASL and you're off and running.
One other thing... personally, I'd want to SEE (i.e. inspect closely) anything put out by Critical Hit before I spent my time and money on it. They may have improved, but they have a poor reputation for quality of their rules and scenarios. YMMV.
Sam
Bar none, the best way to learn is to read chapter A and B and play someone who already knows the system.
If you don't have anyone near you, you can use VASL (VASL.org). Its shareware and it allows you to watch other people play - and to play people from all over the world.
You can be up and playing in a few hours... Read Chapter A and B, contact a local or download VASL and you're off and running.
One other thing... personally, I'd want to SEE (i.e. inspect closely) anything put out by Critical Hit before I spent my time and money on it. They may have improved, but they have a poor reputation for quality of their rules and scenarios. YMMV.
Sam
Pitman
Forum Guru
One of, if not the, best recent ASL products was a Critical Hit product--the Hero Pack. I've played almost every scenario and every one was a winner.
da priest
Member
pitman said:
))Well if you weren't a newbie and didn't have something in the chute to be published by CH, maybe this would mean something.
For us groggies and the non-CH affiliated--we'll go with Sam's thoughts.
apbills
Elder Member
To actually play ASL does not really take much time at all.
To learn ALL of the rules takes alot of playing time. I have been playing since the SL days and still have never played an amphibious landing scenario. I would love to, but my RB games seem to get in the way.
I never play without my QDRC and if OBA is around, that flow chart is at my side. I have an e-ASLRB which is constantly up when on VASL (my primary ASL outlet). I am constantly reading and updating myself on the rules - and keep finding things I really didn't fully understand.
Is this too much time? I don't think so, but my wife sure does.
It is the only game I play at this time. I have yet to find a boardgame that even comes close to the enjoyment factor I get out of this game. I like the level of control/unknown in the game. I have never seen any other game with the amount of detail, that has been boiled down into a very playable, and easily playable, game. The mechanics of the game are really not that much. The finer details are what you gain with experience. Mastering it is looking like a lifetime experience for me.
The other REAL BIG factor is people. I hate computer games. I like to play against people. Nothing like kickin your friends butt and gloating over it. Nothing like getting your butt kicked just as hard the next day. I like to talk to people, make new friends, have a beer after the game (or watch Bob B consume a keg during the game as he systematically takes apart your forces with ease). You can't get any of that out of a computer game.
That being said, ASL is NOT the game for everyone. It can be mighty frustrating. I just finished a turn where my opponent CH (snakes) a 548 in a foxhole with a sherman tank. We happened to be using the IIFT, so he got 2 rolls on the 28 table to pick from. We are talking 28-2 here! He rolled 9 for both of them, making it a 4MC. My guy passed with a 3. Talk about frustrating! His rate shot hit as well, and did nothing either.
For all of the good and bad things, IMNSHO ASL is THE GAME. Anyone who says their game is better than ASL is just trying to hoodwink you into spending some cash on their game. Their game might be good, but I have yet to see anything that comes close to ASL, at least for the tactical level game it is.
Alan
To learn ALL of the rules takes alot of playing time. I have been playing since the SL days and still have never played an amphibious landing scenario. I would love to, but my RB games seem to get in the way.
I never play without my QDRC and if OBA is around, that flow chart is at my side. I have an e-ASLRB which is constantly up when on VASL (my primary ASL outlet). I am constantly reading and updating myself on the rules - and keep finding things I really didn't fully understand.
Is this too much time? I don't think so, but my wife sure does.
It is the only game I play at this time. I have yet to find a boardgame that even comes close to the enjoyment factor I get out of this game. I like the level of control/unknown in the game. I have never seen any other game with the amount of detail, that has been boiled down into a very playable, and easily playable, game. The mechanics of the game are really not that much. The finer details are what you gain with experience. Mastering it is looking like a lifetime experience for me.
The other REAL BIG factor is people. I hate computer games. I like to play against people. Nothing like kickin your friends butt and gloating over it. Nothing like getting your butt kicked just as hard the next day. I like to talk to people, make new friends, have a beer after the game (or watch Bob B consume a keg during the game as he systematically takes apart your forces with ease). You can't get any of that out of a computer game.
That being said, ASL is NOT the game for everyone. It can be mighty frustrating. I just finished a turn where my opponent CH (snakes) a 548 in a foxhole with a sherman tank. We happened to be using the IIFT, so he got 2 rolls on the 28 table to pick from. We are talking 28-2 here! He rolled 9 for both of them, making it a 4MC. My guy passed with a 3. Talk about frustrating! His rate shot hit as well, and did nothing either.
For all of the good and bad things, IMNSHO ASL is THE GAME. Anyone who says their game is better than ASL is just trying to hoodwink you into spending some cash on their game. Their game might be good, but I have yet to see anything that comes close to ASL, at least for the tactical level game it is.
Alan
Johnny Canuck
Member
That sounds interesting.ABills said:
The following web page also hints of this:
http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/help/
Having ASLRBv1, with ASLRBv2 on order (both on paper), an e version would be of great interest.
apbills
Elder Member
Lots of people have them. Many people have developed them. I do not know the state of the official version that was going to come out. I suspect it is on the back burner, or even removed from the kitchen.atuline said:
Get the paper copies and play enough people until you find someone willing to pass along their copy. It is copywrited material, so beware.
I suspect the proliferation of various versions of these electronic rulebooks is why MMP stopped actively pursueing it. They need to make money and it is way to easy to copy. The production costs to actually sell it would far outweigh the revenues coming in IMHO. After the initial buy, the sales would drop as people just bootlegged it.
Alan