Leader location in a stack

Robin Reeve

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True there isn't a rule, but all the examples show the leader on top, unless in possession of a SW.
And the examples belong to the rules.
And graphical elements - such as terrain depictions or counters - are meant to be understood, in addition to the written rules.
 

olli

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I have never come across anybody this side of the pond that puts leader counters on the bottom or anywhere else other than the top, but if I did I would not make an issue of it . Their choice but Christ sake guys grow up if it is not in the rule book it’s up to the individual where and how he stacks things ?
 

Robin Reeve

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The essential question is about social relationships and how we organise them.
Something like "metagaming".
That is why this thread is not in the Rules folder.
But the social dimension has more importance than we could think in theory.
The message a given behaviour is sending can define the type of interaction it aims.
We rarely are just playing.
We are relating.
And when the perspective is to spend long hours with someone else, the expectation of a time of quality is not to be ignored.
But the ability to adapt and overcome minor frustrations is also the only way to have social interactions at all.
 

Steven Pleva

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Just because something is not in the rules doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. For me, it comes down to a matter of politeness. For example, if someone had a dice rolling apparatus that where their opponent could not easily see the dice, that would be rude in my opinion. There is no rule that governs how dice are rolled. Civility is not legislated...
Steve
 

Michael Dorosh

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The long pedigree of the game has led to stuff like this I think. I don't have my SL rules near to hand - did they dictate where the leaders went? I tend to doubt it but everyone playing ASL early on - including the designers and developers of ASL - cut their teeth on Squad Leader, so I'm sure a few conventions simply bled over without comment, or a perceived need to put them in the rules.

There is no rule that governs how dice are rolled. Civility is not legislated...
I am reminded of that scene in A Few Good Men where Noah Wyle is asked how he knew where to eat his meals, if the Marine Corps standing orders for Guantanamo Bay Naval Base didn't include instructions on how to find the mess hall.
 

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In all my years of ASL gaming, I am pretty sure until these threads were started I never gave one second's thought to where my opponent's leaders were in stacks, but now every time I see a leader on top of a stack, these threads are going to make me wonder if he is on top of the stack because he wants to be or only because of peer pressure. "Don't fret, little 8-1," I'll have to tell him, "the game will be over soon."
 

Steven Pleva

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It's a simple standard. There are game reasons to put the leaders somewhere other than the top of the stack. All players do this. However, if you are trying to "hide leaders in plain sight" then I think this is counter productive. Others disagree. I can live with that...
Steve
 

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After set up when both sides know where most pieces are guys still try to hide their leaders at the bottom of the stack while the stack is in clear LOS of the enemy. This is a bush league play that just slows the game down...
Steve
So hiding the HMG, FT, Psk, etc under a leader is OK? Or hiding the 8-3-8 under that 8-0 leader is OK?

My point being, why wouldn't you look through all the visible (un-?) stacks anyway in order to see, not just leaders, but "big" hitter SW's, quality of units, quantity of units, type of units, etc.

Or, here's a thought...just ask your opponent what's in the visible (un-?) stack? If your opponent refuses to give you such a stacks contents then, by all means, man-handle the hell out of said stack.

Only one counter can be on top...so if it isn't the leader, you are assigning some malicious intent ("hiding") to your opponent. Problem with that is, per rule, it's a false narrative. Your opponent can't "hide" counters in a visible (un-?) stack.
 
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bendizoid

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Our soldiers getting their ass's handed to them for saluting in the front lines...i.e., sniper bait.
Little bit of a stretch because real snipers can’t stop the battle to look at stacks with a whim. Which will be happening more frequently with leaders cowering at the bottom and attempting to hide when actually it’s probably in your interest to have them above, watching a crucial SW. Its really not that important to me it’s just a style of play.
Just a side question, do you put your armored leaders on your vehicles with a additional buttoned up/crew exposed counter on it or do you keep a side note? I keep a side note but space out and forget them 10% of the time. I wonder why sometimes.
 
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Tooz

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After set up when both sides know where most pieces are guys still try to hide their leaders at the bottom of the stack while the stack is in clear LOS of the enemy. This is a bush league play that just slows the game down...
Steve
I think Squad leader may have had the rule where the leader must be placed on top, but not certain after all of these years. To this day, i still have my leaders on top.
 

Yuri0352

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Just a side question, do you put your armored leaders on your vehicles with a additional buttoned up/crew exposed counter on it or do you keep a side note?
I record my Armor Leader's location on a side note until I use their morale/leadership factor... as per D3.41.
 

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I record my Armor Leader's location on a side note until I use their morale/leadership factor... as per D3.41.
For me, that is the equivalent of not having an armor leader. So I always put the AL counter on the board immediately. Sure, my opponent knows he's there but at least that way I know he's there.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I think Squad leader may have had the rule where the leader must be placed on top, but not certain after all of these years. To this day, i still have my leaders on top.
I asked the same question up thread, now that I'm at home, I have taken a look. Here's what I see in the 4th Edition SL rules:

6. STACKING
6 . 1Each player may stack no more than 4 of his infantry units (only 3 of which may be squads) plus a maximum of 10 portage points of support weapons per hex. (EXCEPTIONS: 27.2, 56.8, 57.1).
6.2 In Close Combat situations both sides may occupy the same hex up to their normal maximum stacking limit. Once Close Combat has ended with one side victorious, any excess support weapon counters must be eliminated with the victorious player given the choice of which weapons to remove.
6.3 Players may exceed stacking limits during movement so long as hexes are not overstacked at the end of the Movement Phase.
and this:

12.21 An immediate Morale Check must be made on every unit on a target hex which has just received a “M” or “#” result on the Infantry Fire Table. Leaders are checked first
I wonder if that didn't persuade all us OCD types to put them on the top.
 
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