Landing craft passengers unloading into an enemy occupied hex

[JoeArthur]

So,

I was playing Vaagso Venture as the Germans and decided to defend the beach. Which meant my opponent had to unload his landing craft passengers onto enemy units.

D6.5 states:

"PRC may unload or Bail Out in an enemy-occupied hex with no special rules or consequences; place a CC counter to show they are in melee"

My opponent states that my German units have to fire at each passenger as they unload. Like a Banzai / Human wave going into an opponents hex. I stated it looks like the Germans get to choose whether they fire or not per D6.5.

Who is right please and why?

Many thanks again for any help.

 

[EagleIV]

D6.5 (unloading into an enemy occupied location) says nothing about the units there having to fire at the units as they unload. However the Germans may not fire at another location.

 

[Honosbinda]

So,

I was playing Vaagso Venture as the Germans and decided to defend the beach. Which meant my opponent had to unload his landing craft passengers onto enemy units.

D6.5 states:

"PRC may unload or Bail Out in an enemy-occupied hex with no special rules or consequences; place a CC counter to show they are in melee"

My opponent states that my German units have to fire at each passenger as they unload. Like a Banzai / Human wave going into an opponents hex. I stated it looks like the Germans get to choose whether they fire or not per D6.5.

Who is right please and why?

Many thanks again for any help.

Sorry Joe, I think your opponent is correct, per this rule:

A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh whether it uses Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire, or FPF [EXC: A SMC with a MG/IFE already marked with a First Fire counter may not use Subsequent First Fire or FPF because it cannot use Sustained Fire; 9.3]. See also OVR; D7.2. All such FPF and any Defensive/Subsequent First Fire must be combined into one Mandatory FG (7.55).

It's not D6.5 that mandates the fire, but nor does D6.5 negate A8.312, as far as I can tell. D6.5 does state that:

PRC may unload or Bail Out in an enemy-occupied hex with no special rules or consequences

Yet, this statement does not, in itself, negate A8.312. One the units unload, they are no longer PRC, but become Infantry and hence subject to this rule. I don't think that placement of the CC counter has any bearing on the matter, except insofar as to identify a location being shared by enemy units not yet in Melee.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think A8.312 will applies, since if the Passengers are unloading from an LC that is Beached across a hexside within the VCA the former-Passengers are entering the Beach hex from another Location as they unload.

 

[Honosbinda]

I think A8.312 will applies, since if the Passengers are unloading from an LC that is Beached across a hexside within the VCA the former-Passengers are entering the Beach hex from another Location as they unload.

Whether Infantry enters its location from 'another location' or enters from a vehicle unloading in the same location, the Infantry is still entering the location.

A8312 does not specify that such entry must be from 'another' location. Entry of the location is sufficient, by whatever means.

And why should it be any different? No reason that I can see. The defenders must open up with TBPF as soon as enemy infantry is in the location.

 

[Carln0130]

It's TPBF. The Defender is obligated to fire.

 

[Cpl Uhl]

So I won the rules argument, but Joe is winning the war. My Brits are getting annihilated by Joe's beach boys...and I don't think one of his units has broken from FPF.

 

[JoeArthur]

Sam - well done for your rules interpretation. Good job we played it your way

Thanks for the help everyone. Just to be clear then Marc, if I twist the turret on a tank with riders and they bail out into an enemy occupied hex - then the enemy has to FPF if he has FF and SFF? Assuming my guys survive the bailing out process.

You're right Sam - none of my boys broke from FPF - mainly because the residual went first, then the three firelanes and by that point the problem had gone............

 

[Vinnie]

Sam - well done for your rules interpretation. Good job we played it your way

Thanks for the help everyone. Just to be clear then Marc, if I twist the turret on a tank with riders and they bail out into an enemy occupied hex - then the enemy has to FPF if he has FF and SFF? Assuming my guys survive the bailing out process.

You're right Sam - none of my boys broke from FPF - mainly because the residual went first, then the three firelanes and by that point the problem had gone............

I don't think they do since the requirement to fire is on infantry entering the location.

"A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh whether it uses"

The riders are already in the location and you are not required to fire upon them.
The infantry does not enter the location.

 

[Honosbinda]

I don't think they do since the requirement to fire is on infantry entering the location.

"A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh whether it uses"

The riders are already in the location and you are not required to fire upon them.
The infantry does not enter the location.

Hey Joe it depends on when you turn the turret. If in the MPh, yes. If in the AFPH, then I think no.

Vinnie, that's an interesting twist, are you speaking post-MPh or all the time (i.e. any phase?).

If they are not in the location, where is the infantry? They must have entered the location to be in the location.... in this case they entered it by bailing out, resulting in TBPF, if in the MPh.

 

[JoeArthur]

The riders are already in the location and you are not required to fire upon them.
The infantry does not enter the location.

Martin - many thanks for looking at this.

If you look at it this way then surely the loaded landing craft passengers are in the location of the infantry on the beach prior to unloading?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If you look at it this way then surely the loaded landing craft passengers are in the location of the infantry on the beach prior to unloading?

I am no sure in this case - the Landing Craft is in the Ocean hex and the Passengers unload across a hexside into the Beach Location.

 

[JoeArthur]

I am no sure in this case - the Landing Craft is in the Ocean hex and the Passengers unload across a hexside into the Beach Location.

Klas - you're right. G12.3 they are in the ocean hex.

 

[Vinnie]

Martin - many thanks for looking at this.

If you look at it this way then surely the loaded landing craft passengers are in the location of the infantry on the beach prior to unloading?

I took the radical step of agreeing with Klas...

 

[Honosbinda]

Some still seem to think that entry of Infantry demands that they enter from a different location for mandatory TBPF.

Show us where that is stipulated, rather than assumed??

It's not how the rule A8.312 reads. So it must be somewhere else.

Cite the rule, please, to support this requirement of entry from another location. Vinnie? Klas? Joe? That would work wonders

Infantry unload in the MPH at which point, they enter the location. They sure weren't there before this happened!

Of course, this kind of logic may be unanswerable since there is no rule. Silence is consent

 

[Vinnie]

Hey Joe it depends on when you turn the turret. If in the MPh, yes. If in the AFPH, then I think no.

Vinnie, that's an interesting twist, are you speaking post-MPh or all the time (i.e. any phase?).

If they are not in the location, where is the infantry? They must have entered the location to be in the location.... in this case they entered it by bailing out, resulting in TBPF, if in the MPh.

All phases.
The vehicle and prc enter the location. There is no requirement to fire upon them at that point.
You bail out nd become infantry but the infantry is not "entering the location" so no mandatory fire upon them..

 

[Honosbinda]

All phases.
The vehicle and prc enter the location. There is no requirement to fire upon them at that point.
You bail out nd become infantry but the infantry is not "entering the location" so no mandatory fire upon them..

Yes, it is entering. If it is not entering, what do you call it? Teleportation? Teleportation so surprising that the enemy has time to thoughtfully avoid using TBPF?

 

[Vinnie]

Changing status?
TO be honest, I am not adverse to your take on it and if you asked Perry, I would not be astounded if he agreed with you. My reading is that the phrase "entering the location" requires to be entered from another place rather than from another status.

 

[Honosbinda]

Changing status?
TO be honest, I am not adverse to your take on it and if you asked Perry, I would not be astounded if he agreed with you. My reading is that the phrase "entering the location" requires to be entered from another place rather than from another status.

It's a good point you make about status vs place. In both case, though, MF are being expended. Not so for bailing out, which makes Joe's question even more pertinent.

I was just think about the possibility of them 'becoming more vulnerable and more threatening' as a rationalization requiring mandatory TBPF. Not in the rules just my perception.

I think the usual take is that entering means coming from another location, but I have to think that in game terms, TBPF would be even more likely in this situation.

 

[JoeArthur]

The reason I asked about riders is I was looking for new sleaze. My opponent has final fired, a tank comes along and drives in, twists its turret, the infantry bail out and it is FPF for my opponent - even if my guys have failed the bailing out MC and are DM'd.

To me logically (when was ASL ever logical ) the riders have entered the location when they came in with the tank, not when bailing out. However I can see that they become infantry upon bailing out and that might change things.

Surely other people have used that sleaze? How do they play it?