Kriegsmarine Monitors in Action

von Marwitz

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As for how he Prinz Eugen survived the Soviet air dominance, attacking ships is a specialist skill. It is doubtful that he read air force had the skill or felt the beccesjtg to acquire it since by far the larger part if their work was ground support.
covfefe? :rolleyes:

Anyhow, it was 1945. Repeat 1945. Not much effective Luftwaffe left if any. And a whole lot of USSR Air Force. And the ship was around for many weeks in the same area. Close to land.

Not being able to even damage it was, no doubt, a glaring failure.

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Brian W

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It seems unlikely that attacking the Prinz Eugen would have been very profitable when it was in port. AA protection around German ports were some of the best in the Axis side of he war. And frankly by the middle of 1944, what good was the ship and all the resources that went into maintaining it? The benefit of the ship as a threat to shipping was nil at that point, so NOBA was about the only thing it was good for, and the 1,000 people that it took to man it and keep it running could have certainly be used elsewhere.
 

von Marwitz

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She wasn't in port. She was cruising close to the coast giving fire support to Heer ground units in Kurland or East Prussia.

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Brian W

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As for how he Prinz Eugen survived the Soviet air dominance, attacking ships is a specialist skill. It is doubtful that he read air force had the skill or felt the beccesjtg to acquire it since by far the larger part if their work was ground support.
Hitting a ship in port is no easier or harder than hitting the docking facilities it is moored to. Hitting a ship in motion is harder, but still well within the ability of a trained air crew. Or at least not so far off that it wasn't worth while trying.

I suspect the reason would have to do with the ship moving from port to port, strong AA at those ports, low target priority, and being in ports out of range of Soviet aircraft.
 

Brian W

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She wasn't in port. She was cruising close to the coast giving fire support to Heer ground units in Kurland or East Prussia.
Edit: Here's Wikipedia's description of the ships movements from Oct 1944 to the end of the war:
While on the return voyage to Gotenhafen on 15 October, Prinz Eugen inadvertently rammed the light cruiser Leipzig amidships north of Hela.[62] The cause of the collision was heavy fog.[68] The light cruiser was nearly cut in half,[62] and the two ships remained wedged together for fourteen hours.[65] Prinz Eugen was taken to Gotenhafen, where repairs were effected with a month.[62] Sea trials commenced on 14 November.[66] On 20–21 November, the ship supported German troops on the Sworbe Peninsula by firing around 500 rounds of main battery ammunition. Four torpedo boats—T13, T16, T19, and T21—joined the operation.[66] Prinz Eugen then returned to Gotenhafen to resupply and have her worn-out gun barrels re-bored.[62]



Prinz Eugen under escort from Copenhagen to Wilhelmshaven after surrendering
The cruiser was ready for action by mid-January 1945, when she was sent to bombard Soviet forces in Samland.[69] The ship fired 871 rounds of ammunition at the Soviets advancing on the German bridgehead at Cranz held by the XXVIII Corps, which was protecting Königsberg. She was supported in this operation by the destroyer Z25 and torpedo boat T33.[66] At that point, Prinz Eugen had expended her main battery ammunition, and critical munition shortages forced the ship to remain in port until 10 March, when she bombarded Soviet forces around Gotenhafen, Danzig, and Hela. During these operations, she fired a total of 2,025 shells from her 20.3 cm guns and another 2,446 rounds from her 10.5 cm guns. The old battleship Schlesien also provided gunfire support, as did Lützow after 25 March. The ships were commanded by Vizeadmiral Bernhard Rogge.[66][70]

The following month, on 8 April, Prinz Eugen and Lützow steamed to Swinemünde.[65] On 13 April, 34 Lancaster bombers attacked the two ships while in port. Thick cloud cover forced the British to abort the mission and return two days later. On the second attack, they succeeded in sinking Lützow with a single Tallboy bomb hit.[71] Prinz Eugen then departed Swinemünde for Copenhagen,[65] arriving on 20 April. Once there, she was decommissioned on 7 May and turned over to Royal Navy control the following day.[70]
 
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von Marwitz

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The point remains that she was active for a long time out on the sea firing support to shore units as her main occupation interrupted by spells in port for resupply and repairs not caused by the enemy. All this without much support neither by other surface units nor significant air cover. All this operating in not a large area with the enemy having air supremacy most of the time. This late in the war, even Soviet naval forces, namely submarines, became active in the Baltic again being previously confined to the immediate vinicinity of Leningrad until the Germans had to retreat and could not maintain the extensive minefields with small surface units any longer when they had lost their bases in the area.

I hazard a guess that under the same conditions, she would not have lasted weeks but rather days instead of months operating in the West even eliminating Allied naval forces from the equation.

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witchbottles

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As for how he Prinz Eugen survived the Soviet air dominance, attacking ships is a specialist skill. It is doubtful that he read air force had the skill or felt the beccesjtg to acquire it since by far the larger part if their work was ground support.
I'm not so sure. "Red Star over the Yalu" is the Soviet version of the 1950-1953 air war in MiG Alley of North Korea and PRC/ Manchuria - with detailed operational analysis of Soviet, CPAAF and NKPAAF records in comparison to the ROKAF , USAF, USMC, USN and RAF records of the period to identify the likeliest actual combat data of the first jet clashes in the world.

It is rather clear that the Soviet PVO and IAD units sent to fight over North Korea in MiG 9s and MiG 15s were some of the best air combat pilots the USSR had, and most were already multi-kill aces of the Patriotic War. They didn't get that way by being only specialized in ground attack, nor by not shooting down LW aircraft in droves from 43-45.

I have little doubt that the USSR held ample quantities of anti-shipping aircrew - given the severity of fighting in small craft across the Black Sea from 41-45.
 

witchbottles

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The point remains that she was active for a long time out on the sea firing support to shore units as her main occupation interrupted by spells in port for resupply and repairs not caused by the enemy. All this without much support neither by other surface units nor significant air cover. All this operating in not a large area with the enemy having air supremacy most of the time. This late in the war, even Soviet naval forces, namely submarines, became active in the Baltic again being previously confined to the immediate vinicinity of Leningrad until the Germans had to retreat and could not maintain the extensive minefields with small surface units any longer when they had lost their bases in the area.

I hazard a guess that under the same conditions, she would not have lasted weeks but rather days instead of months operating in the West even eliminating Allied naval forces from the equation.

von Marwitz
perhaps- but the Tirpitz was reasonably active from 42-44 in Norweigan fjords against the West, and it took over 2 years of multiple operations to finally cripple her by air assault permanently.
And she was much more heavily armored than the PE.
 

von Marwitz

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perhaps- but the Tirpitz was reasonably active from 42-44 in Norweigan fjords against the West, and it took over 2 years of multiple operations to finally cripple her by air assault permanently.
And she was much more heavily armored than the PE.
As far as I know, the Tirpitz was not conducting any operations from September 1943 until she was finally sunk in November 1944 at all laying at anchor in a fjord except having changed anchorages from this fjord to another before. Before that, there was an operation in September 1943 vs. Spitzbergen and in 1942 two notable missions vs. convoys in northern waters. Throughout all her service life, Tirpitz never had any engagement vs. any enemy surface units. And while she was still actually moving about, the German Luftwaffe was not the shadow of its former self like in late 1944 and 1945. While at anchorage in various fjords, she was usually very well protected against air attack. These anchorages lay far further from Allied bases compared to the situation of Prinz Eugen.

Tirpitz was much higher on the target priority list than Prinz Eugen, yet I venture to say that her odds of survival were higher during her time than those of Prinz Eugen from late 1944 and into 1945 should have been.

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witchbottles

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As far as I know, the Tirpitz was not conducting any operations from September 1943 until she was finally sunk in November 1944 at all laying at anchor in a fjord except having changed anchorages from this fjord to another before. Before that, there was an operation in September 1943 vs. Spitzbergen and in 1942 two notable missions vs. convoys in northern waters. Throughout all her service life, Tirpitz never had any engagement vs. any enemy surface units. And while she was still actually moving about, the German Luftwaffe was not the shadow of its former self like in late 1944 and 1945. While at anchorage in various fjords, she was usually very well protected against air attack. These anchorages lay far further from Allied bases compared to the situation of Prinz Eugen.

Tirpitz was much higher on the target priority list than Prinz Eugen, yet I venture to say that her odds of survival were higher during her time than those of Prinz Eugen from late 1944 and into 1945 should have been.

von Marwitz
I do tend to agree with you overall, as I noted in post #47:

...I have little doubt that the USSR held ample quantities of anti-shipping aircrew - given the severity of fighting in small craft across the Black Sea from 41-45.
 

Vinnie

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I'm not so sure. "Red Star over the Yalu" is the Soviet version of the 1950-1953 air war in MiG Alley of North Korea and PRC/ Manchuria - with detailed operational analysis of Soviet, CPAAF and NKPAAF records in comparison to the ROKAF , USAF, USMC, USN and RAF records of the period to identify the likeliest actual combat data of the first jet clashes in the world.

It is rather clear that the Soviet PVO and IAD units sent to fight over North Korea in MiG 9s and MiG 15s were some of the best air combat pilots the USSR had, and most were already multi-kill aces of the Patriotic War. They didn't get that way by being only specialized in ground attack, nor by not shooting down LW aircraft in droves from 43-45.

I have little doubt that the USSR held ample quantities of anti-shipping aircrew - given the severity of fighting in small craft across the Black Sea from 41-45.
Air combat and anti ship operations are really quite different. I' not denigrating the effectiveness of the Red Air Force in what they did. It' just in a continental based war, anti ship operations are always going to be low priority.
 

von Marwitz

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Air combat and anti ship operations are really quite different. I' not denigrating the effectiveness of the Red Air Force in what they did. It' just in a continental based war, anti ship operations are always going to be low priority.
While I agree in general, I don't think that operations vs. Prinz Eugen firing shore bombardements cannot be compared to typical anti ship operations. I am no expert of WW2 air-to-ship attacks, but here's my thinking:

The main armament of Prinz Eugen were 8x 20,3cm SK C/34 guns which had a range of roughly 30 kilometers. So while firing shore bombardement, it must have been rather trivial to find her (cloud cover / daylight permitting). Fly down along the coast and you'll see her. And even if you don't, it is possible to narrow down the area in which she must be located rather precisely. This is one difference compared to normal anti-ship operations, where the ship in the open sea is usually much more difficult to find.

As the situation lay in late 1944 and in 1945, German forces in Kurland and East Prussia were completely or partly surrounded or bypassed and pushed close to the coast into a small area. This means that Russian airfields could follow up the Russian advance rather closely behind the front. From there the distance to reach out to a ship bombarding an area near the coast would be quite short. This in turn would mean that the Prinz Eugen could be reached a) quickly and b) no long range aircraft were necessarily required for the task, the latter further increasing the number of elegible aircraft for the task. As distances were short and finding the ship must have been rather easy, there would also not be a requirement for the ability of the attacking aircraft to loiter for some time.

Without having detailed knowledge about this, I tend to agree that the Russians might not have much experience in air-to-ship attacks nor many pilots skilled for the task. But this must at least partially have been alleviated by the aforementioned conditions. With regard to the difficulty of hitting a moving ship: Of course, even in case of larger vessels, this is not an easy task. On the other hand, I am sure that many Russian pilots were very well capable of hitting moving trains. And by the time, the Russians also just had the numbers to make up for what they might have lacked in skill.

What I don't know is whether the Russians had suitable bombs for the task. Besides that, the only explanation for failing to sink her that would convince me besides dismal ineptitude somewhere in the system is that the Russians considered the ship's operation of no significant consequence to allocate aerial resources to the task. But even then, the Russians had submarines active in the area.

As an aside, the Russian submarines in the Baltic performed mediocre at best after being able to get out of the confines of the immediate area of Leningrad/Kronstadt.

von Marwitz
 
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