Kriegsmarine Monitors in Action

Yuri0352

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Kwajalein was not used for atomic testing.
JR
No kidding?
I'm quite certain that I made no such implication of nuclear tests at Kwajelein in my post. Read in to it however you like, I was merely curious as to whether there was any level of radiation remaining in the vicinity of Prinz Eugen after it had been towed to its final resting place.
 

witchbottles

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There is a lodge for divers on Bikini. Apparently you can't eat the plants, but it is otherwise habitable. See the article above. Kwajalein was never a site for atomic tests.

JR
True Bikini and Enewetak were used for post-war testing. Enewetak has far more residual radiation levels than Bikini - mostly due to the use of thermonucs there. Bikini is closer to Kwajalein. The "Mike" shot tests caused widespread fallout over the entire Marshalls, however. Many inhabitants were re-located and some fishing vessels were contaminated as well. Far worse overall in radiation exposures than able and Baker at Bikini Atoll - designed to test the effects of A-bombs on fleets at sea.
 

witchbottles

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Delving deeper into the Black Sea light naval forces and possible reference books, I have found the following list I am interested in studying from:

Superpowers at Sea: An Assessment of the Naval Arms Race

Richard W. Fieldhouse, Shunji Taoka, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute
Oxford University Press, 1989






World War II at Sea: An Encyclopedia, Volume 1

Spencer C. Tucker
ABC-CLIO, Nov 30, 2011

World War II: The Essential Reference Guide

Priscilla Mary Roberts
ABC-CLIO, 2012

World War II Sea War, Vol 4: Germany Sends Russia to the Allies

Donald A Bertke, Don Kindell, Gordon Smith
Lulu.com, Dec 15, 2012




Naval Strategy and Operations in Narrow Seas

Milan N. Vego
PUBLISHER
Taylor and Francis
PRINT PUB DATE
2003



Digesting History : The U.S. Naval War College, The Lessons of World War Two, and Future Naval Warfare, 1945-1947
Hal M. Friedman and Naval War College Press



Power at Sea, Volume 2 : The Breaking Storm, 1919-1945
Lisle A. Rose

The Soviets as naval opponents, 1941-1945
F Ruge - 1979 - Naval Institute Press

Soviet naval operations in the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945
VI Achkasov - 1981 - Naval Inst Press

Soviet Amphibious Operations in the Black Sea, 1941–1943
CB Atwater Jr - 1995

Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation Volume IIB

Nigel Askey
Lulu.com, Aug 26, 2014

Steel and Ice: The U-Boat Battle in the Arctic and Black Sea 1941-45

Lawrence Paterson
The History Press, Jun 6, 2016


That is what I found in English on the subject that I can readily access. If anyone has any others that are of a similar vein, I would be highly appreciative of the point towards them.
 

witchbottles

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No kidding?
I'm quite certain that I made no such implication of nuclear tests at Kwajelein in my post.
I did not think you did myself...
I was merely curious as to whether there was any level of radiation remaining in the vicinity of Prinz Eugen after it had been towed to its final resting place.
I do believe there was a period where Bikini diving was at first restricted, then limited in duration. The duration time limits might still exist. Some of the dives are required as mixed gas due to depth, however. I too was unaware that PE was towed out and sank in shallower waters. It looks like she's beached on a coral shelf, so her deep end may be a hundred or more feet down, making for a tough dive. The shallower end appears easily accessible, as the photo shows. There are significant restrictions to diving in the Enewetak waters, however, and for good reason. One of the blasts kind of "got away" from the scientists, and became the largest nuc detonation the US ever fired. (undetected went the fact that Li-7 will isotope into a fissile Li extract at superheated pressures within a hydrogen bomb explosion detonation, thereby increasing the yield exponentially. A bad choice for an " inert agent" buffer for the device.) I wrote a paper on the testing at Bikini and Enewetak, and its ultimate result in the Partial Test Ban Treaty. It was published in 2015. Helluva an interesting research topic - I am still quite amazed by the totality of research in the nuc tests in the Marshalls chain. There is a Nature Channel documentary on a set of Bikini Atoll dives, aired in 2013. Neat show if you can find a streaming copy of it, enjoy.
 
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Tooz

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If anyone can come up with Russian landing craft--many types used--I would be in your debt.
 

Yuri0352

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I did not think you did myself...
I do believe there was a period where Bikini diving was at first restricted, then limited in duration. The duration time limits might still exist. Some of the dives are required as mixed gas due to depth, however. I too was unaware that PE was towed out and sank in shallower waters. It looks like she's beached on a coral shelf, so her deep end may be a hundred or more feet down, making for a tough dive. The shallower end appears easily accessible, as the photo shows. There are significant restrictions to diving in the Enewetak waters, however, and for good reason. One of the blasts kind of "got away" from the scientists, and became the largest nuc detonation the US ever fired. (undetected went the fact that Li-7 will isotope into a fissile Li extract at superheated pressures within a hydrogen bomb explosion detonation, thereby increasing the yield exponentially. A bad choice for an " inert agent" buffer for the device.) I wrote a paper on the testing at Bikini and Enewetak, and its ultimate result in the Partial Test Ban Treaty. It was published in 2015. Helluva an interesting research topic - I am still quite amazed by the totality of research in the nuc tests in the Marshalls chain. There is a Nature Channel documentary on a set of Bikini Atoll dives, aired in 2013. Neat show if you can find a streaming copy of it, enjoy.
Great info, thanks!
I've always been fascinated by shipwrecks although I have only visited one, the destroyer (HMCS Yukon?) which rests in 100+ ft. off of the San Diego county coast. Depending on the residual radiation if any, the Prinz Eugen could be the only opportunity to visit a sunken Kriegsmarine surface warship.
 

witchbottles

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You might also consider reviewing David Glantz' work on August Storm and the events that followed ( the invasions conducted in the Paramushiro and upper Kurile chains). The fighting at Fuchin saw heavy Soviet riverene force applications. Those vessels were for the most part- trans-shipped across the SU after VE Day.
 

witchbottles

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Great info, thanks!
I've always been fascinated by shipwrecks although I have only visited one, the destroyer (HMCS Yukon?) which rests in 100+ ft. off of the San Diego county coast. Depending on the residual radiation if any, the Prinz Eugen could be the only opportunity to visit a sunken Kriegsmarine surface warship.
https://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/miscellaneous/tirpitz_tromsoe_then_and_now/tirpitz_tromsoe_then_and_now.html

This is the Tirpitz wreck off the coast of Norway - pics date from 2004. There was a historical record dive made in 2008, and a video of that dive exists on Youtube.

http://www.admiral-hipper-class.dk/bluecher/miscellaneous/oscarsborg_bluecher_wreck_site_today/oscarsborg_bluecher_wreck_site_today.html

This is the site for the Blucher's final wreck, and it was also dove on for historical recording purposes in 2008, the video is also available on Youtube of that dive.

The Adm Scheer pocket battleship apparently still lies in several pieces off the breakwater pierside in Keil. I have no idea what the German government's position on historical recording diving is there.

The Graf Spee was apparently salvage dived in 2014 by an outfit from Uruguay.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-30471063
 

witchbottles

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If anyone can come up with Russian landing craft--many types used--I would be in your debt.
Let's get Alan --

footsteps. paging footsteps.......please pick up the white courtesy counter creator telephone.... your party is waiting.......

:D

He's pretty good at taking a poke at an ASL usable counter from the stats and photos.
 

witchbottles

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Delving deeper into the Black Sea light naval forces and possible reference books, I have found the following list I am interested in studying from:

Superpowers at Sea: An Assessment of the Naval Arms Race

Richard W. Fieldhouse, Shunji Taoka, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute
Oxford University Press, 1989





World War II at Sea: An Encyclopedia, Volume 1

Spencer C. Tucker
ABC-CLIO, Nov 30, 2011

World War II: The Essential Reference Guide

Priscilla Mary Roberts
ABC-CLIO, 2012

World War II Sea War, Vol 4: Germany Sends Russia to the Allies

Donald A Bertke, Don Kindell, Gordon Smith
Lulu.com, Dec 15, 2012




Naval Strategy and Operations in Narrow Seas

Milan N. Vego
PUBLISHER
Taylor and Francis
PRINT PUB DATE
2003



Digesting History : The U.S. Naval War College, The Lessons of World War Two, and Future Naval Warfare, 1945-1947
Hal M. Friedman and Naval War College Press



Power at Sea, Volume 2 : The Breaking Storm, 1919-1945
Lisle A. Rose

The Soviets as naval opponents, 1941-1945
F Ruge - 1979 - Naval Institute Press

Soviet naval operations in the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945
VI Achkasov - 1981 - Naval Inst Press

Soviet Amphibious Operations in the Black Sea, 1941–1943
CB Atwater Jr - 1995

Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation Volume IIB

Nigel Askey
Lulu.com, Aug 26, 2014

Steel and Ice: The U-Boat Battle in the Arctic and Black Sea 1941-45

Lawrence Paterson
The History Press, Jun 6, 2016


That is what I found in English on the subject that I can readily access. If anyone has any others that are of a similar vein, I would be highly appreciative of the point towards them.
a couple more for the pile:






those seem interesting primary source materials.
 

AdrianE

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There is a lodge for divers on Bikini. Apparently you can't eat the plants, but it is otherwise habitable. See the article above. Kwajalein was never a site for atomic tests.
JR
There was. I have been there. Bikini Atoll Divers (a branch of the Marshal Island govt) shut down because Air Marshall Islands (yet another branch of the govt of the Marshal Islands) could not reliably deliver divers from Majuro to Bikini. So you cant stay there anymore.

You can still dive Bikini but its from a liveaboard boat that leaves from Kwajalien. You can dive the Prince Eugen at Kwaj but there is a shit ton of bureaucracy to do so as Kwaj is basically a US military base.
 

HansK

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There was, but there still seems to be a discussion if it was a 'real' gunboat or something more like a converted trawler or other vessel.
 

jrv

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According to wikipedia, there were three German boats, two "gunboats" and one carrying infantry. One "gunboat" was sunk and the crew captured. I would expect these were just regular boats that had weapons mounted on them, but I can't find much detail.

JR
 

witchbottles

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Was there an AA barge at Remagen - Ludendorff Bridge during the battle and afterwards? I know the CDL's were used to find frogmen with demo charges as part of the counterattacks - Any idea where those CDL sets were deployed?

KRL, Jon H
 

von Marwitz

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Was there an AA barge at Remagen - Ludendorff Bridge during the battle and afterwards? I know the CDL's were used to find frogmen with demo charges as part of the counterattacks - Any idea where those CDL sets were deployed?

KRL, Jon H

Without having doublechecked - I do not think so with regard to the Germans. I have been on site numerous times and visited the small museum within the bridge's foundations.

The bridge was, of course, strongly defended by FlaK of various calibers (8.8cm, Flak-Vierlings etc.). Some of the Flak-Vierlings were located atop the rock directly above the railroad-tunnel entrance which leads right onto the bridge. Most of the heavier AA assets were emplaced on the western side of the river. Among the FlaK weapons there were also multiple rocket launchers called "Föhn". See the following link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_297

It is very well possible that the picture of the Wikipedia entry shows the very one atop the rock at Remagen.

I don't remember having ever heard about FlaK barges (at least of German ones). It is true that the Germans unsuccessfully tried to blow up the bridge with frogmen after its capture. They even fired V2 rockets at it but the closest hit was about a kilometer or so off target.

If I am not too lazy, I might look up the FlaK barge issue in my books.

von Marwitz
 
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jrv

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There was a partially submerged barge on the east bank from which the Americans received "sniper" fire as they crossed. The barge was taken under fire from tanks on the west bank. It was not, I believe, a FlaK barge.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Vinnie

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As for how he Prinz Eugen survived the Soviet air dominance, attacking ships is a specialist skill. It is doubtful that he read air force had the skill or felt the beccesjtg to acquire it since by far the larger part if their work was ground support.
 
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