Kreta

Pitman

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RE: Recon 4 counters. When we looked at the counters we had 5 copies cut for approval (of both Recon 4 and the countersheets that included Kreta-SF1 and SF2) All of them where fine. At that point it was out of our control. The counters where then cut on the wrong side. From that point the counters were packaged and sent out. We did not find out about the back printing until they were in customers hands. There was never a decision to purposly send out the counters. The map was a similar situation the proofs I got where fine. Same with the two apostropies, We have no clue how that got there, just call it a Cretian symbol.
Steve, I am a little confused. You say that, regarding the RbF4 counters, you did not find out about the back printing until the counters had been shipped out and were in customers' hands.

However, in February 2007, Chas Smith made the following post here on the gamesquad forums:

Gentlemen,

Final cuts being made and shrinkwrapping starting. Expect shipping to be sometime next week. Unfortunately the holiday weekend is a factor.

There was something we needed to confirm before putting out this information, and we want to be up front about it. Two things made this product a Home Run rather than a Grand Slam. However, in both cases it does not prevent use, play, etc, and they still look great.

1) SF scenario cards: Somehow they got put in the stack of stuff that got the three ring punch. The holes are on blank space and do not effect any information.

2) R4 counters. The puffy side is the "backside", and the flat side the "frontside". Unfortunately the printer could not get the registration to work the other way and they were damaging the countersheets. For whatever reason when the flipped it, it worked, and they went with it. The counters still look great. After nearly 5 months of messing with this happy it will finally be out.

On a positive side the print quality of the covers, scenario cards, notes pages, and magazine are all very high; they look great!
This sounds to me that HOB knew about the counter problem before shipping them out. Am I mistaken?
 

Stevedeth

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The point is that the proofs were fine and the production was not. I was not running that process so I could be mistaken on the timeframe but I did not find out until customers had it in their hands.

On another note if/when HOB closes shop and anyone asks why I will say Pitman did it
 

Bill Kohler

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I peeked at the Kreta map in VASL and, in my view, it's the best looking ASL terrain I've seen. The fact that this module combines that terrain with paradrops and gliders is phenominal. (And, based on how HoB handled the RbF counters, I'm sure if the map turns out to be a big deal--and if it won't present an undue financial burdern--they'll provide another option for that as well.)

I'm really looking forward to this module--I hope it arrives this week. Thank you, HoB!
 

MajorDad

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On another note if/when HOB closes shop and anyone asks why I will say Pitman did it
It seems like every time a TPP finds its self in trouble they pull out the "We will just close the shop" card so everyone will feel sorry for them. It is like arguing with a women and she starts to cry so you will feel sorry for her and tell her it is alright.

If HOB closes shop it is not because of Pitman or me or other customers like us who expect quality for their money. It is because they cannot produce quality products as they have in the past. There are plenty of people who are providing quality ASL material and can fill the void. I will be the bad guy and say if it is to much to ask that you provide quality products as you have in the past or correct mistakes that "you did not know about" then yes it is time for you to close shop.
 
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DSK665

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I think everybody needs to chill out a little, I agree with Steve that its not worth it if all everybody is gonna do is complain. I was not happy with the map at first but I can see how problems can pop up. The TTP , I think are doing a good job considering the amount of work that goes into a project.You learn from your mistakes and move on, I would have no problem paying for a map with different material and in 2 parts.

Doug
 

Honza

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I must say I'm not too worried about the quality of the map. TPP ASL stuff has always had that "home-made" feel to it. If white paper shows through the printing at the corners I'll just accept it as one of the quaint quirks of a "home-produced" niche hobby. It will be like drinking someones "home-brew", it may not be gold standard but it has its own unique charm. Just like in HOB's early years. Take a look at BRV first edition or HOB's BRT! We have come to expect "gold standards" from HOB when in fact they are producing pretty much the same quality ASL that they have always done.
Don't judge too harshly!
HOB have always had that rough and ready feel to them compared to MMP. They don't have the financial clout like MMP have. Steve is doing his best as he has always done. If you don't like what he does then don't buy it. Personally I'm happy with what I can get.

Steve, don't let everybodies complaining get you down. HOB is still a top notch TPP and as I said there is no real difference to what HOB is producing now to what it produced 10 years ago - if anything HOB has got better and better.
MONEY is at the root of most small businesses problems, if people want better quality products from HOB then they should give HOB a large sum of CA$H!!

Cheers.
 

Stevedeth

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Well,

This is going no where. I'm out unless it is a Kreta specific question not a diatribe against me or TPP. I'll let you know what we work out with the printer and please go ahead and play Kreta on the other 100s of hexes on the map. The CG is great, the Geo scenarios are a lot of fun. The designers went to the area three times! Thier heart and passion for this is so above where we are now with this discussion.

Thanks for the support!

-Mark Neukum, I'm Comming....
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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We had a few unbalanced actions as well, but I agree with Roger, they are a lot of fun and nice for a short evening's gaming session.
I don't think you should go into a FF! scenario looking for a utopian balance experience. I think you should go into them for a quick, as-close-to-beer-and-pretzels-ASL as you're ever going to find.

Use them as quick-hitting tactical puzzles to hone your skills and not the typical clash of egos an ASL scenario tends to be. They're f-u-n!
 

Stevedeth

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Use them as quick-hitting tactical puzzles to hone your skills and not the typical clash of egos an ASL scenario tends to be. They're f-u-n!

YEAH, You get it!!!!!!!
 

Portal

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Uh, guys, ASL ain't no beer and pretzels game. It's all about obsession over minutiae for 5-6 hours at a time. Lets those egos flow. :smoke:

:laugh:
 
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I don't think you should go into a FF! scenario looking for a utopian balance experience. I think you should go into them for a quick, as-close-to-beer-and-pretzels-ASL as you're ever going to find.

Use them as quick-hitting tactical puzzles to hone your skills and not the typical clash of egos an ASL scenario tends to be. They're f-u-n!
I agree entirely. And, I applaud HoB for their effort to produce a different type of gaming experience for us to engage. Not every ASL player wants only historical campaign games. Not every ASL player wants only scenarios "blessed" by MMP. Some of us actually like to try different things. So for that reason I give HoB the benefit of the doubt when they produce a new product.
But I do start to worry when I see product after product coming out with similar issues. It's a strong indication of a systemic problem somewhere in the process. If the problem lies primarily with the printing company, then after so many tries, one would think that employing a different printer is the answer.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Uh, guys, ASL ain't no beer and pretzels game. It's all about obsession over minutiae for 5-6 hours at a time. Lets those egos flow. :smoke:

:laugh:
It's always a way to fill those unexpected gaming opportunities that may pleasantly surprise you by popping up when you least expect them. Remember, I, too, typicaly like the meatier fare of ASL, but I also appreciate throwing down a FF! scenario whilst waiting for the next round of a tourney to start...
 

Jazz

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Uh, guys, ASL ain't no beer and pretzels game. It's all about obsession over minutiae for 5-6 hours at a time. Lets those egos flow. :smoke:

:laugh:
The Fire Fights were not really my cup of tea either. That still does not mean that they may not be someone else's cup of tea....and it really ain't my place to tell them different.

HOB has come out consistently with quality ASL product. More consistently than other TPP IMMHO....but that is just an opinion. There may be some production quality issues (counters, maps, etc...), but in my mind (another one of the opinion things) these are secondary to the actual ASL content, which has always impressed me, even if some of it isn't quite what I like to play. The production issues that I have seen have not made the product unusable to me.

As always, YMMV.
 
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Tuomo

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What program should be used to open these files?
They're zip archives. Winzip works on these for windows, and I imagine StuffIt can handle these on Macs. Linux... I dunno.

When you unzip the file, you will get a file called "bdKreta" (no quotes). Put this file into your VASL/boards folder and you'll be good to go. Some web browsers automatically unzip such files for you, so when you download it, you might just get that "bdKreta" file without any need to further unzip it before you put it in your VASL/boards folder.

Tom
 

MajorDad

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Well,
This is going no where. I'm out unless it is a Kreta specific question not a diatribe against me or TPP. I'll let you know what we work out with the printer and please go ahead and play Kreta on the other 100s of hexes on the map. The CG is great, the Geo scenarios are a lot of fun. The designers went to the area three times! Thier heart and passion for this is so above where we are now with this discussion.
Steve,

I am sorry if you think I was beating up on you or TPPs in general because that was not the case. My issue was and is on your company's quality control issues. I have been a long time supporter of HOB. I own the original BRT, BRV, BTB and others. Just look back at post #28 of this thread when people were being critical of the map glossy finish and hex sizes. The issue with others and me was the quality of the map, which is the latest of a line of quality control issues. I have seen HOB produce great products and call me spoiled, but I have come to expect that to continue.

You are correct; The design of Kreta (Scenarios, CG, Map Design) are great. I hope you are able to correct the map issue. This great module deserves a map that won't crack or tear with the slightest use. Nothing more, nothing less.

Take care.
 

RobZagnut

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>I peeked at the Kreta map in VASL and, in my view, it's the best looking ASL terrain I've seen.

I agree. It is absolutely gorgeous.


>The fact that this module combines that terrain with paradrops and gliders is phenominal.

Again, I agree. This module brings ASL players a unique experience on a beautiful map with many cool scenarios.


>(And, based on how HoB handled the RbF counters, I'm sure if the map turns out to be a big deal--and if it won't present an undue financial burdern--they'll provide another option for that as well.)

This is the difference. It is how HoB handles a problem. They don't bury their head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist. Their playtest philosphy is not. "If you throw enough sh1t against the wall, some of it is going to stick." They don't leave players hanging with version #1 and make players wait for the problems to be fixed and make them repay years later with version #2.

They are a small company that experiences small company issues. I had no problem paying HoB to help them reprint the RBF#4 counters. The end result was amazing and it's a small price to pay to make sure they're still around so I can see what they come up with next.

If HoB wants help reprinting that gorgeous map then I will gladly help with costs be it production or shipping, because I want to insure that I see their next product. They've earned my trust. I would do the same for Schwerpunkt, Dispatches, LfT, Bounding Fire or MMP. I treat the ASL hobby like a small community where everyone is in it together for the common good. If you've earned my trust I will back you forever.

The payoff: Kreta.

And I couldn't be happier. I'm stunned how HoB keeps getting better and better. OtO, RBF#4 and Kreta are on par with the very best of any ASL product on the market.
 

Pitman

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This is the difference. It is how HoB handles a problem. They don't bury their head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist.
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what they did with the RbF counters. They released the product with defective counters, hoping that the outcry would not be overmuch. When the protests became too loud, they went to plan B, which was to reprint them the right way. With Special Forces, they knowingly released a product that had holes punched in the scenario cards. With Kreta, they released a product knowing that it had a map which was not what they had ostensibly paid for.

In all of those situations, the right thing to do would have been to have corrected the problem before the product was released. However, the preferred mode of operations seems to be to release it and hope that you don't have to correct the problem. So far they are 1 for 2 and we are still waiting to see to what extent people may be willing to live with the Kreta map.

They are a small company that experiences small company issues. I had no problem paying HoB to help them reprint the RBF#4 counters. The end result was amazing and it's a small price to pay to make sure they're still around so I can see what they come up with next.
They would have been still around if they had reprinted the counters and upped the original price to account for the added expense, rather than knowingly sending out a defective product in the first place. You seem to keep bypassing the fact that the issue in this regard is not that defective counters were printed, but rather that HOB made the decision to release the product with defective counters, hoping that they would not have to reprint it. The message I quoted earlier from Chas Smith makes this quite clear. How can you say this is a good practice?

If HoB wants help reprinting that gorgeous map then I will gladly help with costs be it production or shipping, because I want to insure that I see their next product. They've earned my trust.
How precisely have they earned your trust by releasing products with defective components? You seem to have a very low threshold of satisfaction. You seem to think that factory recalls are an equivalent level of quality to fixing problems before new automobiles are actually released to the public. Well, I don't think so.

Your loyalty is commendable, but it appears to me to be pretty biased and, based on comments you made that I snipped in this reply, rather subject to the "not Critical Hit" phenomenon which has made HOB so immune to criticism in the past.

I hesitate at posting this, because Steve D has already made it clear in his recent martyrdom posts that he thinks I have some sort of vendetta against Heat of Battle. But I can't let uncritical, emotional posts such as yours just go by unremarked. You are not holding Heat of Battle to a reasonable standard; you are just giving them a free pass because they are not the company you hate so much.

I say praise Heat of Battle for all that is praiseworthy. Praise Heat of Battle for the attractive geomorphic mapboards of High Ground and Beyond the Beachhead. Praise Heat of Battle for the attractive counters of Onslaught to Orsha and Special Forces. Praise Heat of Battle for interesting historical releases such as Orsha, Berlin, Cassino, and the like. Praise Heat of Battle for giving obscure scenario designers a chance to do pet projects on obscure topics (like Tropic Thunder and Buckeyes). Praise Heat of Battle for trying to raise the third party publisher bar with, at various times, color historical maps, mounted die-cut counters, campaign games, and more. God knows they have done a lot that they deserve credit for.

But when they fall short, when there are problems or lapses, when there are quality control issues, and carelessness and a lack of attention to detail, well, step up to the plate at those times, too, and let them know that they themselves set their own bar high and that you'd like them to stay at that level.

It is not a crime to point out problems or flaws, especially if you do so in the hopes that it will help a company get back on track.
 
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