Korea and Beyond

Whizbang1963

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Whether or not we like the idea, ASL has been expanding to cover Korea and beyond. Do you think this is a good thing? Once we get past Korea (with the exception of some of the aircraft and helicopters not much had really changed in combat syle) do the changes morph ASL into something completely different?
 

pward

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Korea shouldn't be too difficult to adjust ASL to fit. Helicopters are likely the only really "new" thing to hit the battlefield. Bigger and better tanks, which were on the drawing boards in WW2, and perhaps some adjustments to TO&E, but the same standard MMC and SMC would probably do.

I gave a few hours to musing about how to incorporate helicopters into the game, and came up with 30 or so MP, with a combination of aircraft movement using 1 point per hex, and truck movement when the chopper dropped below aircraft levels and started using level counters to indicate it's height. (Might need to add a level 4 counter, so the chopper could pass over a level three building.) If you're above the terrain height, it's treated as open ground. If you're landing or moving at ground level through brush for instance, it's truck COT costs. No entry of woods/jungle/orchards/buildings at ground level. Can't be IN a depression location and can't bypass obstacles. Pay the COT if changing level of flight. Normal loading and unloading rules for trucks.

ISTR that real "airmobile" operations didn't start until Vietnam. How often was the helicopter a major participant (gun platform or taxi) in a battle in Korea? Resupply and evacuation of wounded by air, but moving whole companies directly into battle by helicopter, how often did that happen in Korea?
 

Whizbang1963

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Korea shouldn't be too difficult to adjust ASL to fit. Helicopters are likely the only really "new" thing to hit the battlefield. Bigger and better tanks, which were on the drawing boards in WW2, and perhaps some adjustments to TO&E, but the same standard MMC and SMC would probably do.

I gave a few hours to musing about how to incorporate helicopters into the game, and came up with 30 or so MP, with a combination of aircraft movement using 1 point per hex, and truck movement when the chopper dropped below aircraft levels and started using level counters to indicate it's height. (Might need to add a level 4 counter, so the chopper could pass over a level three building.) If you're above the terrain height, it's treated as open ground. If you're landing or moving at ground level through brush for instance, it's truck COT costs. No entry of woods/jungle/orchards/buildings at ground level. Can't be IN a depression location and can't bypass obstacles. Pay the COT if changing level of flight. Normal loading and unloading rules for trucks.

ISTR that real "airmobile" operations didn't start until Vietnam. How often was the helicopter a major participant (gun platform or taxi) in a battle in Korea? Resupply and evacuation of wounded by air, but moving whole companies directly into battle by helicopter, how often did that happen in Korea?
Don't think there would be much change for Korea..Have not seen anything radical in what I've had a look at so far. Beyond Korea..different story..
 

MarkDV

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LOTS of assault fire and spraying fire.

ELITE units like Special Forces/Green Berets, Navy SEALS, SPETZNATZ etc would have self rallying.

Morale levels? 6s, 7s, and of course 8s for my Marine Corps (there, I just started a flame war...)

ARTY might be a little more evil/deadly if you factor in submunitions or the ability to put bomblets down and create minefields during play, just for an example.

But yeah, otherwise, not a lot of changes in some odd ways.

Mark DV
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Whizbang1963

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But do we want to see ASL go in this direction or are we better served with some of the other game systems that already cover Vietnam at this level? (Lock N Load for one)
 

pward

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But do we want to see ASL go in this direction or are we better served with some of the other game systems that already cover Vietnam at this level? (Lock N Load for one)
I don't object to it covering other timeframes. Korea and Vietnam would probably be relatively simple conversions. (And lengthy discussions on FP and ML for various units...)

Modern conflicts with wire guided missiles, and other modern toys (like those mentioned by MarkDV) might be a bit more difficult. Whats the front armor on an early model M1 with the heavier armor? What about the more recent editions of the M1? How do you model reactive armor? TK numbers for modern weapons?

Do you bother with a set of rules for chemical or biological weapons, or just say it's a booby trap level A for both sides... (Scenarios set in the Iran Iraq war...)

Offboard SAM coverage interacting with fighter-bombers... Or onboard SAMs for that matter...

Chapter E might gain a whole lot of new pages I would think, along with the lots of obvious stuff added to A-D... Chapter B might not get a whole lot of loving, but the other core chapters would get lots of new rules.
 

footsteps

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But do we want to see ASL go in this direction or are we better served with some of the other game systems that already cover Vietnam at this level? (Lock N Load for one)
For the period of SCW to Korea: yes.

It gets dicier after Korea, though there are probably regional conflicts (Sinai, 6 Day War, etc) where it might work.

Alan
 

Michael Dorosh

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Korea shouldn't be too difficult to adjust ASL to fit. Helicopters are likely the only really "new" thing to hit the battlefield.
They had little if nothing to do with the "battlefield" in the tactical sense.
 

Michael Dorosh

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This gets brought up over and over and the common sense answer is this:

Any time frame in which the infantry squad is the basic unit of maneuver is ripe for a treatment in ASL.

Whether or not MMP chooses to put out an "official" treatment for ASL will be up to them.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Ok - interestingly, Brian, you started another topic almost identical to this one not long ago.

I've just gone through and TAGGED some of the more relevant discussion threads - scroll down to the bottom of this page - I've called them "asl: alternate eras" for those interested in seeing the past discussions.

It's a good topic, so no harm discussing it again. There are currently yahoo groups set up developing a variety of "modern" ASL projects that you can find by joining yahoo and doing a search. Some members of the board contribute to them in various ways. Can't tell you what their relationship with MMP is or if they are still recruiting, etc.; best bet is to contact them directly once you find them - but there is certainly a lot of interest and I can say from experience that they are certainly active.

Wild Bill's unofficial variants seem popular as do Critical Hit's pre- and post- World War II modules.

Those who aren't interested, don't need to buy them, naturally. I would love to see MMP put out an "official" post-1945 rulebook, however, encompassing "modern ASL" - just one way of many to encompass the post-war era. Many conflicts to choose from - Israeli conflicts, Iran-Iraq, Vietnam, Falklands, fictional NATO vs. WP. The more recent they are, however, the harder to research due to material being classified and harder to obtain ballistics testing data (as far as armour penetration stuff - hey, they're still arguing about the Second World War stuff, really).

If it generates revenue for MMP and isn't a drain on their resources, why not? I'd much rather see a stamp of officialdom on it no matter what quality the TPP are capable of.
 

Kenneth P. Katz

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The ASL system will work fine for armies where the basic unit of fire and maneuver is the squad and conventional warfare. It will not work well for post-modern warfare where military victory in conventional terms is a lesser priority than "winning hearts and minds" or the enemy does not fight in uniform and instead hides behind civilians.

From a technological perspective, the Korean War is no different from World War II. There were helicopters but they were not used as gunships or for air assault so they really don't fit into the scope of ASL. As you move closer to the present, the technology gets more complicated, with ATGW, advanced armor, advanced fire control systems and night vision equipment. I do not think that these are impossible to fit into the ASL system.

After Korean War and the Spanish Civil War, I think that the next logical subjects would be the Arab-Israeli wars of 1947-49, 1956, 1967 and 1973. Vietnam is an interesting subject, although we run into the problem of guerillas hiding behind civilians. The Falklands War would be a promising subject.

I do think that the future of ASL does belong to conflicts outside of WWII because when the Finnish module is published that war will have been completely covered other than esoterica.
 

Kenneth P. Katz

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There was only one airmobile operation in Korea, and there was no opposition so it was not a battle as such.

Helicopters ISTR that real "airmobile" operations didn't start until Vietnam. How often was the helicopter a major participant (gun platform or taxi) in a battle in Korea? Resupply and evacuation of wounded by air, but moving whole companies directly into battle by helicopter, how often did that happen in Korea?
 

Kevin Kenneally

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I beleive the AFVs will be good enough until the Sinia 1956. Maybe even with just a few "updated" counters for the real fights that occurred.

Not the vehicles that fought the "Cold War" in too many REFORGER exercises.
 
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