"Known enemy Units" not yet come on

atago44

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
197
Reaction score
172
Country
llUnited States
I'm not sure what you are answering.
I'm not concerned with the units that are in play and are subject to the written rule.
You know, I think there are several of us who don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking about the counters that are not in play? Several people have offered good solutions to the issue. My comments concerning off board, not yet in play units, are very relevant.

If you are concerned about people counting counters, several people have offered viable solutions. I consider my idea of placing concealment counters on my units yet-to-come onto the board a viable solution. I might add, why it would be such a big deal should someone count my counters is beyond me, providing they are not handling them. In your example your OB is 11 units, and you bring on five units. Then it's obvious that there are 6 that did not come on; that is, unless one can't count.

Are you concerned by someone cheating by including an extra counter in their OB? Well the fix is easy here. When the mistake is discovered, the opponent of the player who included an extra counter may select a counter of the type of the extra counter. The player who included the extra one should not complain about which that is, as any advantage gained previously to the removal of the counter occurred when they had a non-OB unit on board. Should that player complain, then their opponent has the option of concluding the game and not playing with them again. Once the issue is resolved, as the saying goes, "Shut up and play!"

I will also add, people do make honest mistakes. I have a time or two, and unfortunately it did have some effect on the outcome of the game. Nevertheless, it did not determine its outcome.

ASL is a game of goodwill. The point of playing for most of us is to have a good time with friends, not to fuel an ego-filled drive to win. As such it requires courtesy and flexibility when something untoward happens, whether it is including an extra counter or misinterpreting a rule. Once the mistake is discovered and resolved, the players should resolve next time they will not make that mistake again. It's really not that big a deal.

As we collectively do not seem to understand your question, then I will ask you these three questions.

First, what exactly is the question you are asking? As so many have offered so many different suggestions, it is apparent that you did not ask the question clearly.

Second, has anyone offered a suggestion that would be helpful in resolving the issue? What would that be? (Yeah, two questions, but Gollum did the same with answers in the climax of the riddle game with Bilbo. After all, you did use the word "precious" earlier in this thread, and Gollum is what came to my mind.)

Third, after reading all of the solutions offered, have you come up with a solution to your original question? If you did, it would be helpful to us all if you shared it.
 
Last edited:

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,070
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
ASL is a game of goodwill. The point of playing for most of us is to have a good time with friends, not to fuel an ego-filled drive to win. As such it requires courtesy and flexibility when something untoward happens, whether it is including an extra counter or misinterpreting a rule. Once the mistake is discovered and resolved, the players should resolve next time they will not make that mistake again. It's really not that big a deal.
Most players I have ever met behave and talk the same way. Even those I know who are VERY competitive approach the game like this first and foremost. Kind of makes you wonder. -- jim
 

bendizoid

Official ***** Dickweed
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
4,630
Reaction score
3,244
Location
Viet Nam
Country
llUnited States
Bendezoid...Do you have any ACTUAL comments related to the subject?
Or do you just troll EVERY thread?

You must have descended from Partisans, attempting to Derail any conversation.
I’m kinda wondering how unnatural omnipotent knowledge of the enemy’s OB makes the game more exciting ? Seems obvious that the element of surprise might spice things up a bit. Worry about the cheating if it happens, and a smart person (like yourself) will figure it out in no time.
Maybe give fair warning to your opponent ‘Do not screw up, please.’That sounds fair.
Or ‘If you mess around and f**k this up you will never live it down’.
Maybe ‘I’m going to count every frick’in counter and if I find the tally off and you got extra crap I declare myself the winner, OK?’
Just a few brainstorm ideas for you.
 
Last edited:

SSlunt

Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
436
Reaction score
582
Location
Calgary AB
Country
llCanada
A12.12 says units off board are concealed. A12.16 says you need LOS to have a Right of Inspection. A2.51 says there is no LOS to an offboard Location. The rules disallow your suggestion. There is nothing stopping you from counting the 1/2" and 5/8" counters brought onto the board and deducing the units left offboard though. -- jim
Actual the rules say: Thereafter, a concealment counter may be placed on top of any non-concealed Good Order unit/stack before it enters the mapboard for the first time."

So until the unit is about to enter they are NOT concealed. You must set up the units then place Concealment to set them up with Concealment off board. because all offboard hexes are open ground
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Counters/pieces that have not entered the scenario yet - I've never seen any rule stipulating that one must place them on e.g., the scenario card (I could have missed it of course, but I don't think so).

So to me it sure looks like whether the opponent gets to see/know what has yet to enter is a personal opinion - I don't see much rules basis one way or other. Again, I could be missing somehting, and as always, ymmv.
You realize this opens up an excellent opportunity to cheat by adding that one extra squad or lmg etc. to the OB.

It also SLOWS the game down, as the player who needs to dig out his units needs to count all of the casualties he's accrued and look at every counter on the board.

NP lets continue to facilitate substandard play and lack of sportsmanship.
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Maybe give fair warning to your opponent ‘Do not screw up, please.’That sounds fair.
While I've only played in a few tournaments this year, players that can't read the scenario card correctly to even setup his units in the correct area....2x in a row...simply can't be trusted to "Not screw up"......
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,777
Reaction score
7,200
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
You realize this opens up an excellent opportunity to cheat by adding that one extra squad or lmg etc. to the OB.
You seem to worry a lot about people "cheating" - has that happen a lot to you? (if it has, then you really need to find other opponents).

Of course slipping in an extra counter for a defender that has several ? + HIP is just as easy - so you don't trust any opponent you play when they are the Scenario Defender then?


...and even so, I am commenting on the fact that there does not seem to be a rule to regulate this (do you know of one?) - so what do you want me to say? - make up that there is such a rule and agree with you?



NP lets continue to facilitate substandard play and lack of sportsmanship.
Who's facilitating what in your opinion is substandard and lack of sportsmanship?

If you are playing a scenario like this, and you ask your opponent to let you see what he has not yet entered (which he might very well be ok with), and he says no - what will you do?

Let's say that 10+players in this thread agrees with you take on this, so what? as long as there's no rule on it, how will you resolve it if your opponent does not share your view?

I am not really seeing an "end result" in this thread/discussion....
 
Last edited:

asloser

The Head Tuomo of the Finnish ASL Community
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,047
Reaction score
1,593
Location
Klaukkala-Finland
Country
llFinland
You realize this opens up an excellent opportunity to cheat by adding that one extra squad or lmg etc. to the OB.

It also SLOWS the game down, as the player who needs to dig out his units needs to count all of the casualties he's accrued
NP lets continue to facilitate substandard play and lack of sportsmanship.
Yesterday I played a FTF match on my place. To save some time we agreed on scenario and sides beforehand and I pulled the counters for both sides.

Setting up my opponent said there was one extra German MMG in his OB. And put it away. I did a mistake there and luckily enough it was not my own OB so it was double checked.

Honest mistakes happen, ASL is a complex game and no-one of us is always right, so the best way out is to be understanding when this is discovered and discuss positively how to go on there.

Even YOU will make a honest mistake eventually.

During 30 years of ASL and several hundred different opponents I have encountered cheating player only once. I have made sure that was the last time I played him.
 
Last edited:

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,070
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Actual the rules say: Thereafter, a concealment counter may be placed on top of any non-concealed Good Order unit/stack before it enters the mapboard for the first time."

So until the unit is about to enter they are NOT concealed. You must set up the units then place Concealment to set them up with Concealment off board. because all offboard hexes are open ground
So, when you set your units up, do you set them up concealed and allow your opponent to observe the top-most counter and then conceal them as you suggest here or do you conceal them? I am willing to bet you--along with everyone else--conceals the units right from the start. I have see you playing on VASL so I know you're not doing it as you suggest here.

WRT to timing, I agree, "first time" is not very well defined and it might be worth your while to ask Perry for a clarification. Given that EVERYONE other than you and Stew are telling you something different--including Klas who works hand-in-glove with Perry on Perry-Sez--I would expect Perry to not side with you. Units setup off board are setup concealed. "Setup" is "before" it enters "for the first time". It has been played like this since the beginning. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,070
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
You realize this opens up an excellent opportunity to cheat by adding that one extra squad or lmg etc. to the OB.
Mistakes happen. I have seen players who have had added two HS and forgot to remove the deployed squad. I have seen players enter early or mistakenly. And almost to a man, I have seen those people offer concessions on the spot. The one time I saw a person argue about a concession, the TD came over and rules against the mistake. ASL is too small a community for a cheater to survive in. Word would get around and that person would find it hard find games.

NP lets continue to facilitate substandard play and lack of sportsmanship.
You're the one asking to be spoon-fed information you could get from counting. You're the one asking for rules to be bent or made up whole cloth because you can't sort out the situation with the rules as written. I have offered to play the side you're complaining about. I will even give you my log files and post an AAR of my thoughts and observations if you want to go that path. Don't accuse us of being unsporting and substandard in play while you're the one there asking for an accommodation. It's simply not true. As I said in another thread, you're traveling a well worn path many of us have traveled before. You're coming out of your small group--where you have got along fine--and are joining the greater ASL community. Now you're finding rules nuances and mistakes you were ALL making in your small group and you're frustrated to find the game isn't played the way you learned. We have all been there. Don't let your frustration turn to anger at the community. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,070
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Honest mistakes happen, ASL is a complex game and no-one of us is always right, so the best way out is to be understanding when this is discovered and discuss positively how to go on there.
Mistakes are why A.2 exists. Comradery and friendship is how we resolved our mistakes. Laughter and beer is how we celebrate them :) -- jim
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,990
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Mistakes are why A.2 exists. Comradery and friendship is how we resolved our mistakes. Laughter and beer is how we celebrate them :) -- jim
Heathen! It's laughter and wine!!!😉😉🤣🤣🤪🤪🤤

Whatever gets you through the night, it's alright!
Wow! More material for altered songs!!!🤗☹
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
Played a game against Pitman years ago. Didn't put my glasses on (pride) and misread the scenario card, ending up with an extra HIP unit. Put him on the board. Mark says that makes OOB + 1 unit. The unit went back into permanent HIP status in the box. Mistakes do happen. Cheating ... a very bad for a bunch of reasons one of which is that you are playing against very smart people that know you get x squads, y sw, and z leaders. They will know how many have come into the game. Not me, I can't keep track. But the smart players, they know.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,990
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Played a game against Pitman years ago. Didn't put my glasses on (pride) and misread the scenario card, ending up with an extra HIP unit. Put him on the board. Mark says that makes OOB + 1 unit. The unit went back into permanent HIP status in the box. Mistakes do happen. Cheating ... a very bad for a bunch of reasons one of which is that you are playing against very smart people that know you get x squads, y sw, and z leaders. They will know how many have come into the game. Not me, I can't keep track. But the smart players, they know.
I'm with you! Could barely keep track of my own stuff. 🙄
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,990
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
You seem to worry a lot about people "cheating" - has that happen a lot to you? (if it has, then you really need to find other opponents).

Of course slipping in an extra counter for a defender that has several ? + HIP is just as easy - so you don't trust any opponent you play when they are the Scenario Defender then?


...and even so, I am commenting on the fact that there does not seem to be a rule to regulate this (do you know of one?) - so what do you want me to say? - make up that there is such a rule and agree with you?




Who's facilitating what in your opinion is substandard and lack of sportsmanship?

If you are playing a scenario like this, and you ask your opponent to let you see what he has not yet entered (which he might very well be ok with), and he says no - what will you do?

Let's say that 10+players in this thread agrees with you take on this, so what? as long as there's no rule on it, how will you resolve it if your opponent does not share your view?

I am not really seeing an "end result" in this thread/discussion....
I think the AI cheats whenever I play Panzer General or Civilization 3.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,990
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Played a game against Pitman years ago. Didn't put my glasses on (pride) and misread the scenario card, ending up with an extra HIP unit. Put him on the board. Mark says that makes OOB + 1 unit. The unit went back into permanent HIP status in the box. Mistakes do happen. Cheating ... a very bad for a bunch of reasons one of which is that you are playing against very smart people that know you get x squads, y sw, and z leaders. They will know how many have come into the game. Not me, I can't keep track. But the smart players, they know.
As you said mistakes happen. Rectifying those mistakes in a sportsman like manner is a true indication of good character. IMHO.
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
I have also shorted myself a vehicle in one scenario and a squad in another. All three mistakes ... fatal.
 

SSlunt

Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
436
Reaction score
582
Location
Calgary AB
Country
llCanada
Jim you obviously have not seen me play with reinforcements.
My reinforcements are off board VISIBLE and when they are about to come on I move a stack to the setup location then I cap them. True I may not move all of them to the setup area first but they are in the setup area before I cap them. So if you want to say that I am not doing as I say. Let me know and I will send you a Kewpie doll to keep you warm at night.

Just because everyone plays it one way does not mean they are playing it correctly. i.e. Routing
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,070
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Just because everyone plays it one way does not mean they are playing it correctly. i.e. Routing
Are you suggesting everyone is routing wrong now too? Again, people make mistakes, the perfect game of ASL has yet to be played. If it's something coming on "this" turn and something else coming on "that" turn, I play it as you suggest here. If it is units that enter "on or after", I am under no obligation to show you want entered "on" and what I am reserving for "after". You are of course, free to count counters. You are free to play it incorrectly if you chose. That's your call. Just don't expect everyone else to play it that way. -- jim
 
Last edited:
Top