Kibitzing

[daniel zucker]

I voted NO because the question was about a situation during a tournament. In a situation like this the players are responsible for there own correct play and of there opponent. No one should steep in and say something. Even if one or both of the players are new or unsure of the rules. Tournament play is also about KNOWING THE RULES.

I sometimes also have a problem with players who are always asking others about a rule during play in the tournament setting. I'm not talking about the newbie who is at his first Tournament. I can understand asking questions but at what point does asking question of anyone who is in range go over the acceptable bounds of sportsmanship (if such a thing existents?).

Also don't other people at tournaments have a responsibility to let the guy who is always asking questions to just 'take his lumps'? How often do we see a newbie on this and other forums ask about how to learn to play and someone says just go to a tournament and play, don't worry about winning; the best way to learn the rules is to play. Now it seem that some of those players (who are giving this sage advice) are advocating sitting there, at a tournament, and disrupting my game by trying to be a tutor?


If you want a tutor or to tutor some one you should not be interfering in someone else’s game.

Daniel

 

[JimWhite]

Jim, the tournament rules we use require illegally setup units to be eliminated.=

Ok...that makes sense.

However, if a player sees that his opponent is setting up illegally, he must tell his opponent as much before play begins..=

Again...that makes sense. Which is the situation I was referring to as mentioned previously

I remember walking by a game which just started...

So my original question can now be modified to...

If a player knows his opponent has (prior to starting) setup illegally...the tournament rules state he has to say something. What if he doesn't? What if he just lets the game "begin"...and then says, "Hey...your setup is illegal". What happens then?

Bottom line to me is this: Since I'll probably never play in a tournament I really don't care what happens. If, by chance, I did play and somebody pulled something like that...I would just shrug it off and say "my bad". On the other hand...I do know I would give the other player the benefit of the doubt should he be the one to make the setup mistakes.

In other words I was just responding to this comment

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.

to find out how far some players would go to claim a victory in a game.

...you may see this as a "win-at-all-costs" attitude but that is not the case.

This tournament rule has come about from past experience and as harsh as it seems, it does make sense and it applies to all.

Lacking such a rule, what would you suggest as an alternative Jim?

Ok...like I said...I was asking to see if this attitude was prevalent...I was not intending to state that it was fact. My apologies if it came off that way :nuts:

My alternative? Hmmmmmm.....maybe read the scenario a little more closely for your setup conditions?


=Jim

 

[LDM]

Lee, what if you happen to be watching when that first "canister" round is fired? Do you say something then?




I'd like to say I'd be polite and ask if I could make a comment about the game, but, I'd wait and see if the American would challange the shot.
In this case, 2 wrongs don't make a right.The German player is cheating and the American play doesn't know enought.I would tell the German player he does not have that ammo according to chapter H and would be happy to find it for the American player. If either suggested I mind my own business, game on.

 

[larth]

Concentrate on your own game

Asking if they think the boards are wrong before the game starts, sure. Asking new players if they want some help, ok. Otherwise, during play is a no-no.

As Tate said when is an error not an error - not adding a TH DRM because they miss (-judge) a LOS hindrance? Of course you point out errors for a side; probably a random side if you just walked by, but still only benefitting one side. Are you going to stay around and check their play for the whole game? Don't think they want that.

 

[Jim McLeod]

So my original question can now be modified to...

If a player knows his opponent has (prior to starting) setup illegally...the tournament rules state he has to say something. What if he doesn't? What if he just lets the game "begin"...and then says, "Hey...your setup is illegal". What happens then?

Hopefully, the TD would step in and correct the situation. He should inform "Mr. I'll wait until the other guy has setup and then let him know he is in error and I will win!" that, no, you will reboot the game since nothing more than setup and a WC DR have likely been made.

Slime that would claim a win by way of knowingly allow an opponent to setup illegally has no place in a tournament.

Bottom line to me is this: Since I'll probably never play in a tournament I really don't care what happens. If, by chance, I did play and somebody pulled something like that...I would just shrug it off and say "my bad". On the other hand...I do know I would give the other player the benefit of the doubt should he be the one to make the setup mistakes.

Fair enough.

Ok...like I said...I was asking to see if this attitude was prevalent...I was not intending to state that it was fact. My apologies if it came off that way :nuts:

None, apologies, needed IMHO.

My alternative? Hmmmmmm.....maybe read the scenario a little more closely for your setup conditions?


=Jim

An excellent start!

An interesting thing is, players sometimes get a certain tunnel vision in tournament play and ignore some very obvious information on the scenario card.

Everyone who has mis-read the VC in a scenario, please whistle ...

:whist:








=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

Lee, what if you happen to be watching when that first "canister" round is fired? Do you say something then?

I'd like to say I'd be polite and ask if I could make a comment about the game, but, I'd wait and see if the American would challange the shot.
In this case, 2 wrongs don't make a right.The German player is cheating and the American play doesn't know enought.I would tell the German player he does not have that ammo according to chapter H and would be happy to find it for the American player. If either suggested I mind my own business, game on.

That the German player is cheating is open to debate. He is only doing so if he knows that canister is not available to him but he is waiting for his opponent to call him on it. That case would be considered cheating.

You are quite correct in the askingpart. If those concerned don't want any input, let them play on in ignorance.



=Jim=

 

[Pitman]

My vote is an empahtic NO. We all know there is no such thing as a perfect (rules wise) playing of ASL. The rules are too complicated and in depth to get everything right every game, no matter how hard we try. If I or my opponent make an error it is up to us to discover it and not for you to interject usless we ask you to. I have been both aided and hindered by outside help and I am never happy for either. If you feel really compelled to offer help, then please wait until the game is over and then offer your explanation. If it is something I missed that allowed my opponent to win all I ask is that you do not do it front of the guy that just (hopefully) worked his butt off to beat me. He deserves his win and should not have someone outside the game taking away some of his well deserved feelings of satisfaction of a game well played. -- jim

This sort of comment is based on the mistaken assumption that a rules error is just one player's rules error. Typically, a rules error is committed by both players--one person initiates it and the other person confirms it, or both people have a mistaken consensus. It is not *you* missing something, it is both players missing something. Both players end up playing the game WRONG.

If you win and the other player loses because you both have played a rule WRONG, then you don't necessarily "deserve" your win or "deserve" your "feelings of satisfaction." And vice versa. All it means is that both of you have played incorrectly.

 

[Pitman]

Asking if they think the boards are wrong before the game starts, sure. Asking new players if they want some help, ok. Otherwise, during play is a no-no.

As Tate said when is an error not an error - not adding a TH DRM because they miss (-judge) a LOS hindrance? Of course you point out errors for a side; probably a random side if you just walked by, but still only benefitting one side. Are you going to stay around and check their play for the whole game? Don't think they want that.

There is no such thing as "errors for a side." There are only errors. Both sides are complicit in any error; otherwise, there will be an argument or debate, because they disagree.

And I don't know why anybody in this thread is accepting the whole "are you going to stay around and check their play for the whole game" straw man. Just because you point out an error does not mean that you suddenly become their babysitter or their wet-nurse.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

Seems you guys do not know the rules for this game. If someone makes anything and the play passes that point it is legal as per A.2.
That way a rule error cannot be conducted in ASL.

I fire at your concealed infantry stack (2 squads and Leader) at 13 hexes with my 75mm MA, rolls a snakeeye and I declare a CH and then I resolve it against that stack with a DR of 5 and gets a 3KIA and everyone dies, then I fire something else and not until after that I realise it had to be a subsequent dr of 1-3 to make that a CH. No rules error cause play have proceeded that point and so it was a CH and result stands.

What is there to point out since no mistake was made.

It is all in the tome guys.

 

[Pitman]

Since when did someone mention a retroactive play change?

 

[Brian W]

Twice at ASLOK I have intervened during set up. Once when I saw the defender setting up illegally on a side of a canal that was not in play(I think it was (the other)JR in Weston's War); and the second time two players that got the boards wrong. Both times I hesitated before saying anything, but as play had not yet commenced (although set up was very much in progress) I thought it would be better to say something.

 

[Jim McLeod]

Hi Guys

Seems you guys do not know the rules for this game. If someone makes anything and the play passes that point it is legal as per A.2.
That way a rule error cannot be conducted in ASL.

I fire at your concealed infantry stack (2 squads and Leader) at 13 hexes with my 75mm MA, rolls a snakeeye and I declare a CH and then I resolve it against that stack with a DR of 5 and gets a 3KIA and everyone dies, then I fire something else and not until after that I realise it had to be a subsequent dr of 1-3 to make that a CH. No rules error cause play have proceeded that point and so it was a CH and result stands.

What is there to point out since no mistake was made.

It is all in the tome guys.

True enough Peter, what is past is past.

However, assume that yours is the final game in a round being played and the crowd is watching the action. The example you give takes place. What if someone chimes in about the forgotten subsequent dr?

Would you or your opponent be upset by that?

From either perspective, I for one would not mind at all if someone pointed out this error.



=Jim=

 

[Robin Reeve]

Seems you guys do not know the rules for this game....It is all in the tome guys.

:hail: :hail: Hoobah! Hoobah! Ungawah! Djoodjoo! So great wisdom displayed to small ignorant worms! :laugh:

 

[Sparafucil3]

This sort of comment is based on the mistaken assumption that a rules error is just one player's rules error. Typically, a rules error is committed by both players--one person initiates it and the other person confirms it, or both people have a mistaken consensus. It is not *you* missing something, it is both players missing something. Both players end up playing the game WRONG.

If you win and the other player loses because you both have played a rule WRONG, then you don't necessarily "deserve" your win or "deserve" your "feelings of satisfaction." And vice versa. All it means is that both of you have played incorrectly.

First, Don't put words into my mouth or make assumptions about what I am thinking. You do not like it when others do it to you so don't do it yourself.

Secondly, you state the obvious. Of course any rules error that gets into the game is made by one side and accepted by the other as fact or it would not get into the game now would it? If one or the other side does not agree, it is referred to an outside source for help. I think no one would take exception with ouside input in that case.

Third, what I stated was my opinion. It was not based on any assumption other than my personal belief that a game is between the two (or more) players sitting across the board from one another. Unless you are invited into one of my games, please kindly keep your yap shut. If you just can not bring yourself to do that, then please wait until I the game is done thank you.

Fourth, we are all just doing our best to play the game as correctly as we can. By your definition, none of us deserve to feel the gratification of a hard fought win regularly. I would highly doubt that many of us have ever played a "perfect rules" game, let alone regularly play one. How many series replays featured some overlooked rule or mis-application of a rule? Do you honestly believe that you play every game perfectly? Would you want someone at ASLOK to stand by your shoulder and point out every error you make to you?

 

[Robin Reeve]

Not trying to go too much off topic, but wouldn't good sportsmanship lead a player to correct his opponent's errors, even when they are unfavorable to the latter ?

 

[Corporal Kindel]

Jim, the tournament rules we use require illegally setup units to be eliminated.

However, if a player sees that his opponent is setting up illegally, he must tell his opponent as much before play begins.

After play starts, those same units will be eliminated.

=Jim=

Personally I think this is an extreme measure to be taken for illegally setup Guns, as you noted. Do you kill the crews too? I remember this argument being brought up before, and as I remember there was a good reason behind your measure, but it's still not legal (destroying the Gun) according to the ASLRB. The actually rule, that Peter pointed out, is that the game passes the point of inception as per A.2, certainly no rule that calls for the auto elimination of an illegally placed Gun and its crew .. did it suddenly fall off a cliff? Did a round spontaneously explode?

IMO, this is a "win-at-all-cost" type of approach. The way it should be resolved is to prohibit the Gun from firing from its illegal Location (same rule that says MTRs can't fire from buildings). Obviously the player cannot use the Gun unless it is manhandled out of the building, but that's his problem.

This tournament rule has come about from past experience and as harsh as it seems, it does make sense and it applies to all.

Lacking such a rule, what would you suggest as an alternative Jim?
=Jim=

I can understand the basis of this house rule, and it was a good basis, just not legal IMO, rather it's a house rule, so *indirectly* legal in that sense for one particular tournament only. I think it is important, if you're going to use this HR in a tournament, to make sure it is known to all participants in the tournament, or print it out on the tournament rules paper that is given to all participants if your going to impose this. I would certainly never force my opponent to destroy an illegally placed Gun (that idea never even occurred to me, before reading the other thread), though I certainly wouldn't let him fire it from an illegal position as per above.

By the way, how do you otherwise resolve illegally positioned HIP units? What about a squad & LMG HIP setting up outside of legal setup area? If I discover my opponent did it, I would point out the illegal SU area, but I’d otherwise let the units be unscathed (A.2). I’m interested to know what others would do .. I can just imagine?? Auto prisoners? Auto unarmed? Auto KIA?? And what rule would support any of those measures .. outside of a tournament HR? If I loose the game because of my opponent because of this, then I loose .. it’s just a game after all. I usually always give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren’t intentionally cheating, though I’m sure there are probably some bad boys out there.

Lee, what if you happen to be watching when that first "canister" round is fired? Do you say something then?


=Jim=

This is a good one, and I’ve never seen anyone do this before. I usually always ask my opponent what the availability number is of special ammo when he uses it. If it doesn’t have C7, C6 or whatever on the back of the counter then he can’t use cannister.

I recently did a boofffahh of my own when playing a scenario. I had a Russian HMG + a sqd as a rider in a ‘43 scenario (totally forgot the 14 PP rider limit). My opponent noted & pointed it to me after I unloaded it and said, no big deal, I replied “Sorry about that†.. But that’s exactly the same thing I would’ve done if the position was reversed, or to *any* opponent I had been playing for that matter, if I had noted it at that point. Now if I had noticed it at setup, I would’ve changed it, obviously, or pointed it out to my opponent if he was the culprit, so he would have sufficient time to change his setup .. No big deal to me. How would others resolve this? .. automatically destroy the HMG? let it unload, but malfed? What rule supports that consequence? IMO, anything like that is an extreme win-at-all cost attitude. I end up never enjoying playing with win-at-all cost type opponents. ASL is just a game, and there are no million dollar first prizes in ASL that I’m aware of, being a celebrity at ASL is not the same as being a celebrity movie star like Tom Cruise. The population at large doesn’t care, nor does it know of ASL.

Now, if I happened to be walking by someone’s game in a tournament, or watching players playing this way in VASL I would say nothing, unless they asked me about it, as Jim Bishop noted & did I might add.

I think people need to keep in mind that ASL is an incredibly complex game, and unless you have a perfect memory, there is no way to avoid making mistakes and/or forgetting details when playing ASL. In my case, I usually make very few/no mistakes in the months immediately after a comprehensive rules-reading. The more time that passes between rules-rereading, the more likelihood there is I will forget some detail (14PP rider capacity for example) and make a mistake. It’s been about a year now since I’ve completely re-read the rules.

I suspect that most ASL players are in the same boat. I don’t think anyone should be hacked on too harshly for making mistakes. Someone that tends to make many mistakes usually ends up losing because that person doesn’t have a good enough grasp of the game to encourage victory, so indirectly it won’t become a problem.

 

[Jim McLeod]

Not trying to go too much off topic, but wouldn't good sportsmanship lead a player to correct his opponent's errors, even when they are unfavorable to the latter ?

Correcting your opponent's error is a given should you notice it. The question is, do you the outsider mention a critical rule error as it happens.

SAN is sort of related to this conversation.

Do you, any of the readers, bring your opponents SAN to their attention if they overlook it?

I do.




=Jim=

 

[Tater]

And I don't know why anybody in this thread is accepting the whole "are you going to stay around and check their play for the whole game" straw man. Just because you point out an error does not mean that you suddenly become their babysitter or their wet-nurse.

Then don't start...

As you say rules errors are the responsibility of both "players" not "players" and spectators. Let the players deal with their play. Don't be a crutch.

 

[Tater]

First, Don't put words into my mouth or make assumptions about what I am thinking. You do not like it when others do it to you so don't do it yourself.

Secondly, you state the obvious. Of course any rules error that gets into the game is made by one side and accepted by the other as fact or it would not get into the game now would it? If one or the other side does not agree, it is referred to an outside source for help. I think no one would take exception with ouside input in that case.

Third, what I stated was my opinion. It was not based on any assumption other than my personal belief that a game is between the two (or more) players sitting across the board from one another. Unless you are invited into one of my games, please kindly keep your yap shut. If you just can not bring yourself to do that, then please wait until I the game is done thank you.

Fourth, we are all just doing our best to play the game as correctly as we can. By your definition, none of us deserve to feel the gratification of a hard fought win regularly. I would highly doubt that many of us have ever played a "perfect rules" game, let alone regularly play one. How many series replays featured some overlooked rule or mis-application of a rule? Do you honestly believe that you play every game perfectly? Would you want someone at ASLOK to stand by your shoulder and point out every error you make to you?

Outstanding...I couldn't agree more.

Let the players do the playing...spectators should restrict themselves to spectating (unless asked for input). If errors occur during play then that is just part of the game.

There has never been nor will there ever be a perfect game and we all just need to get use to it.

 

[Jim McLeod]

Personally I think this is an extreme measure to be taken for illegally setup Guns, as you noted. Do you kill the crews too?

Yes.

I remember this argument being brought up before, and as I remember there was a good reason behind your measure, but it's still not legal (destroying the Gun) according to the ASLRB. The actually rule, that Peter pointed out, is that the game passes the point of inception as per A.2, certainly no rule that calls for the auto elimination of an illegally placed Gun and its crew .. did it suddenly fall off a cliff? Did a round spontaneously explode?

As far as I an concerned, tournament rules overrides the ASLRB in this matter.

IMO, this is a "win-at-all-cost" type of approach. The way it should be resolved is to prohibit the Gun from firing from its illegal Location (same rule that says MTRs can't fire from buildings). Obviously the player cannot use the Gun unless it is manhandled out of the building, but that's his problem.

I disagree that the rule regarding illegal setup is a "win-at-all-cost" approach. What if the Gun is setup in an Orchard Road hex and the road is Paved? What if the Gun is HIP'd in OG behind a hedge/wall and an enemy unit has LOS to it from across a non-hedge/wall hexside?

For my money, the Gun and crew are gone for illegal setup should the situation arise.

I can understand the basis of this house rule, and it was a good basis, just not legal IMO, rather it's a house rule, so *indirectly* legal in that sense for one particular tournament only. I think it is important, if you're going to use this HR in a tournament, to make sure it is known to all participants in the tournament, or print it out on the tournament rules paper that is given to all participants if your going to impose this. I would certainly never force my opponent to destroy an illegally placed Gun (that idea never even occurred to me, before reading the other thread), though I certainly wouldn't let him fire it from an illegal position as per above.

By the way, how do you otherwise resolve illegally positioned HIP units? What about a squad & LMG HIP setting up outside of legal setup area?

Gone, finito, goom-bye amigos!

If I discover my opponent did it, I would point out the illegal SU area, but I’d otherwise let the units be unscathed (A.2). I’m interested to know what others would do .. I can just imagine?? Auto prisoners? Auto unarmed? Auto KIA?? And what rule would support any of those measures .. outside of a tournament HR? If I loose the game because of my opponent because of this, then I loose .. it’s just a game after all. I usually always give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren’t intentionally cheating, though I’m sure there are probably some bad boys out there.

What you decide to do at home with the scenario you describe above is your own business. However, as I mentioned before, in a tournament setting and if there are tournament rules saying as much, illegal setup equals removal from play.

This is a good one, and I’ve never seen anyone do this before. I usually always ask my opponent what the availability number is of special ammo when he uses it. If it doesn’t have C7, C6 or whatever on the back of the counter then he can’t use cannister.

I recently did a boofffahh of my own when playing a scenario. I had a Russian HMG + a sqd as a rider in a ‘43 scenario (totally forgot the 14 PP rider limit). My opponent noted & pointed it to me after I unloaded it and said, no big deal, I replied “Sorry about that†.. But that’s exactly the same thing I would’ve done if the position was reversed, or to *any* opponent I had been playing for that matter, if I had noted it at that point. Now if I had noticed it at setup, I would’ve changed it, obviously, or pointed it out to my opponent if he was the culprit, so he would have sufficient time to change his setup .. No big deal to me. How would others resolve this? .. automatically destroy the HMG? let it unload, but malfed? What rule supports that consequence?

Good example.

If I had LOS to the riders at the start of the scenario, I would exercise my right of inspection and look at the stack at which time the error would be noticed and I have them dismount.

Had no LOS existed before this time, and they came driving along to a point where I did have LOS, I would ask that my opponent eliminate sufficient PP to make things right again. Per your example, I will guess that that would be the HMG.

The offending player should not benefit from his error.

IMO, anything like that is an extreme win-at-all cost attitude.

In a competitive match, I disagree. In anon-competitive match, do whatever you want.

I end up never enjoying playing with win-at-all cost type opponents. ASL is just a game, and there are no million dollar first prizes in ASL that I’m aware of, being a celebrity at ASL is not the same as being a celebrity movie star like Tom Cruise. The population at large doesn’t care, nor does it know of ASL.

No money or fame being involved makes the matter more valid in my opinion. As an example, the Olympics actually meant something (IMHO) before it became a business and money overtook the importance of fair competition.

Besides, people seem to cheat more when money and fame are involved. Pro sports and performance enhancing drugs. Corked bats in baseball, etc.

Now, if I happened to be walking by someone’s game in a tournament, or watching players playing this way in VASL I would say nothing, unless they asked me about it, as Jim Bishop noted & did I might add.

I think people need to keep in mind that ASL is an incredibly complex game, and unless you have a perfect memory, there is no way to avoid making mistakes and/or forgetting details when playing ASL. In my case, I usually make very few/no mistakes in the months immediately after a comprehensive rules-reading.

How do you know that you made an error is no one was there to tell you?

The more time that passes between rules-rereading, the more likelihood there is I will forget some detail (14PP rider capacity for example) and make a mistake. It’s been about a year now since I’ve completely re-read the rules.

I suspect that most ASL players are in the same boat. I don’t think anyone should be hacked on too harshly for making mistakes. Someone that tends to make many mistakes usually ends up losing because that person doesn’t have a good enough grasp of the game to encourage victory, so indirectly it won’t become a problem.

How about the case of the lesser player is ahead in the match but he is being slimed by the far more experienced player. I'm standing there watching this and I know that the more experienced *should* know this rule. Victory in the scenario hinges on the event inwhich the lesser player is currently being slimed. Do you say something?




=Jim=