Kibitzing

[FrankH.]

OK to point out rules errors if both players agree that they want help to play correctly.

Easy enough to ask that first.

Otherwise probably annoying.

Frank

 

[Roy]

A few years ago, I was sitting next to an ongoing game. It was a championship game of a mini, and they had chosen to play Puma Prowls.

Looking at the game, they were in turn three and the Pumas were swarming and the T-70's were in a line, on the road, and not very far on board. So I asked them if they knew that in 1943 T-70's were radio equipped. They didn't.

Well, I thought it was information they needed to know. Unfortunately, they felt they had wasted valuable time. And while they were thankful for the information, and the knowledge about the scenario, one of them had to catch a plane so there was no opportunity to restart.

I thought they should play the scenario properly, but afterwards I had second thoughts, it was thier game, not mine. I should have let them play it out, and since then I have kept my mouth shut.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

Gents,

I have long believed that no one should comment on any game in progress during a tournament. That meant, if I saw one player leaving out a DRM on a TH attempt, I would say not a thing.

However, I am now beginning to question that aspect of Kibitzing.

I would never, ever tell a player how to play his match, make suggestions or comment on his play during the match.

But, what if Joe newbie is playing Max the grog and Max leaves out DRM on a TH DR. If Max gets the hit, Joe the newbie will likely lose the game. I am beginning to consider the wisdom of making such an error known to the players involved.

The same could be said for other rule errors.

I am not saying that each match should be refereed. But, if observers are observing and they see a mistake being made that will have a major impact on the games outcome, perhaps a comment should be made.

What do you think?

And just for yucks, I will attach a poll to this Q'


=Jim=

Only comment if asked questions by one of the players, so I guess that's a yes.

 

[Pitman]

I think it is both arrogant and pompous for anyone to wonder around the tourney room pointing out errors...unasked and unwanted. Which probably explains why the "Pitman" is all for it.

You are pathologically incapable of actually responding to what someone says.

 

[da priest]

...So Ron...correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will)...I guess what you're saying is the opponent of the person who made this mistake would most likely force the illegally setup units to be removed...?

No. Exactly what I said is:

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.

You're two turns into a usually timed round of a tourney, and who knows if the improperly setup units have had an impact? (we had a whole thread on what to do with just an improperly setup Gun on the forum..) The guys have no time to restart..who wins? Does nosey Parker have a right to screw-up their game..which they might be having fun at? The screw-up might not even effect the outcome, they just are playing the scenario "wrong" in nosey Parker's opinion.

Who appointed nosey Parker the tourney's scenario God?

...If so...is this self-serving, win-at-all-costs attitude a regular feature of tournaments?

Again:

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.

 

[Blackcloud6]

KNowing the rules and putting them into action is part of ASL. An outsider should not point out anything about another's game in progress. In the example above, the poitning out an about to be missed drm to a "newbie" is interfereing with the game. The Newb needs to learn the hard way.

If I was playing in a tournament and you pointed something out to my opponent I would probably as the game master to remove you from our area.

 

[JimWhite]

You're two turns into a usually timed round of a tourney, and who knows if the improperly setup units have had an impact?

Ok...fair enough Ron. But the original poster of the situation in question stated:

I remember walking by a game which just started ...

and EXACTLY what you said was:

Interesting, you do realize the "erroneously" setup dude would automatically lose those wrongly setup troops, and probably the game? :nervous:

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.

Now I'm assuming the opponent in question can have basically one of two reactions here. Either positive (for lack of a better word) or negative. So getting back to the original situation...obviously if the opponent had a positive reaction to the situation then the two players could work it out themselves. However, if the opponent had a negative reaction, you implied he could force the "erroneously" setup dude to remove the illegally setup units...thereby most likely winning the game.

So if the negative reaction occuurred were you saying you would support this

...self-serving, win-at-all-costs attitude

Again...it simply appeared to me you do since you stated one should NOT

...second guess his opponent's reaction.

This is why I asked my original question in the first place.

 

[Jim McLeod]

I remember walking by a game which just started at the Chicago Open tournament a few years ago. There was a HUGE mistake in interpreting the setup (units were onboard which should be entering from offboard).

The tournament rules said no kibitzing - so I kept my mouth shut. After the game was decided, I mentioned this fact to both players (they both said they wished I would have said something at the beginning).

They decided the game was moot and attempted to replay the scenario within the alloted time (not sure how well that one worked out)

If I ever see something like this again (which is a lot more serious problem than a missed DRM) I would notifiy the tournament director and he can decide the ehtics in the matter.

Fred, I too have seen the "pooched map alignment" situation at tournaments, more than once.

The last time I saw this, they players were not yet playing but were just looking at the maps pondering their setup. I asked them if they were sure about the maps and then the light went on. I believe that they even wanted to revisit their choice of sides after that.

Point is, such an error could really piss off one or both players who may have spent a lot time and money on this tournament. Why possibly sour the experience with a game played with mistakenly setup maps?

I would do the same thing again.




=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

I voted yes, but let me add, I wouldn't say squat, if I asked if I could comment on something I saw, aqnd the answer was no.

A very good point. IF the offer of comment is declined then left them play as is.

Some newbies want to find their way on their own. Pointing out something, might offend them more than the other maybe more experienced player.

You learn more from mistakes than careful coaching.

Agreed. The school of hard knocks is a fine teacher. However, having some newbie get thrashed by a more seasoned player who forgets mod's or does things that the ASLRB does not agree with is not right either.

Everyone forgets stuff but I personally would not mind someone saying something to me if/when I forget a drm/DRM or rule.

It isn't nice to slime or be slimed.





=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

I am OK with having things pointed out during a friendly game, but don't believe anything should be said by anyone during a tournament. I am the kind of person who will go back after a game to check the rules in order to learn from my mistakes, etc. I think a person learns best from experiences both good and bad and I believe most people would get upset with any help given their opponent during a tourney game. A tournament situation is usually tense enough as it is.

I watched a game once, some time ago now, where one guy was being chewed up by his opponents CE RST tanks.

It is amazing the difference a +1 DRM can make to a TH DR.



Thing is, this game would have been much better if they/someone had remembered the correct rule.

I also recall a playing of Acts Of Defiance that had a Russian Commissar. I believe that the Russians won that match.

Cuj', the "tense" game situation you describe likely contributes to players forgetting stuff. If the goal is to have as fair as possible match between players, I would be inclined to point out an error such as the CE RST AFV firing it's MA.

Hopefully this is done before any major damage has taken place.

If half the other guys tanks are already flaming and the error is then discovered, a case can be made for the erroring playing to concede.



=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

Jim will correct me if I am wrong on the next point but the tournement being held this September here in Winnipeg there are specific rules for all games played. It is both player responsibility to verify the order of battle and the set up area before play even starts.

You are correct Jack. Having said that, If play has not yet begun, I see nothing wrong with asking players if they are sure they have their maps correctly aligned. I would appreciate it.

Side note it would be nice to see you come up to Winnipeg for the tournement.

Indeed. Ron, the welcome map it always out up here.






=Jim=

 

[The Purist]

I voted 'yes' but with the caveat being that a TD/aTD make the intervention and early in the game. Half way through or near the end is a bit late and probably pointless. Let them finish and then point out the error.

 

[Jim McLeod]

That is a really silly argument. We are not talking about pointing out bad strategy or bad tactics, but rather pointing out a rules error. There is no such thing as pointing out a rules error for a "side." A rules error is a rules error, regardless of whether or not it affects any player negatively or positively.

I agree with you Mark. There is a world of difference between rule error and play error.

But seeing some guy advance into a gully and then grab a crest counter and then place it on his unit so that he has crest status for the opposite side of that gully may warrant comment.

If the other guy is busy attacking the wrong VC building, who cares. Well actually, the attacking guy will when he finds out at games end.

:cheeky:



=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

Just within the past year, there was a time where I walked by a table where two ASLers were playing and noticed that they had not set up the maps correctly for whatever scenario it was they were beginning to play. I pointed this out and they were quite grateful, as otherwise their game would have been ruined. The notion that I should have kept my mouth shut in such a situation seems really strange to me.

I agree Mark.

I certainly think that "kibbitzing" in the form of offering suggestions is a no-no. I also think that "kibbitzing" in the form of asking questions is a no-no; last year I witnessed a championship game in a tournament where an onlooker several times asked questions ("Has he done X yet? Has his HIP guy come out yet? etc.) that even by their asking, regardless of whether the question was answered or not, could possibly remind one of the players about something or somehow affect the playing of the scenario.

Mr. "Onlooker" should have had a stick poked in his eye. His commentary is completely un-warranted.

I also think you should keep your mouth shut even about the rules if you are inexperienced, if you are just doubtful (as opposed to sure) if a rule is being played correctly, or if it is minor and not of real import.

But this is a game in which we all play by the same rules and should be playing by the same rules.

Agreed again.

Your example of a championship match reminds me of the following. During the 1995 DonCon championship match, the players were playing "Rockets Red Glare". Apparantly the action was hot and heavy but none other than Mike McGrath commented to the American player (who had just fired his bazooka) that he could not do what he had done.

Nothing was done, perhaps due to the person involved, but here it is.

We have a tense game situation, a crowd taking in the action, critical rule errors are made that result in one player getting oh so slimed.

That is not right. I have slimed and have been slimed in the past (MG CH ... of the shame ... no Backblast firing a PSK from rubble ... more shame) but I would have appreciated it if someone had of pointed out those rule errors.



=Jim=

 

[LDM]

I vted YES.

Now Jim,your start off really wasn't all that clear. Say something if its major:Orbat or maps. Forgeting a mod, well hey we all do that.
School of hard knocks, I kind of agree with. But. I saw a game going of where the American was attacking a village and the German had a Stg III in support,pretty basic scen.One look at the board and you just knew the American play was done,DMed reduced units all over etc. So I commented bad dice or some other binnal thing and the NEW American player said its pretty tought attacking against 75 cannister! :surprise:
Says I " Germans don't have cannister." The German player looks a bit uncomfortable and says he thought he'd read somewhere they did.
The point?
Yes, not my game and I should have stayed out but the new guy didn't know. Thats a pretty hard knock to eat.You trust the other guy to be fair ( its a game after all). Let the players make their own mistakes but you can't flog a guy for not knowing.
It's up to experienced players to teach the new guys the rules: let them learn the tactics the hard way.
My opinion.

 

[Jim McLeod]

So Ron...correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will)...I guess what you're saying is the opponent of the person who made this mistake would most likely force the illegally setup units to be removed...thus almost assuring victory instead of allowing the error to be correcting and trying to win through skill and experience?

Jim, the tournament rules we use require illegally setup units to be eliminated.

However, if a player sees that his opponent is setting up illegally, he must tell his opponent as much before play begins.

After play starts, those same units will be eliminated.

If so...is this self-serving, win-at-all-costs attitude a regular feature of tournaments?

No, you may see this as a "win-at-all-costs" attitude but that is not the case.

This tournament rule has come about from past experience and as harsh as it seems, it does make sense and it applies to all.

Lacking such a rule, what would you suggest as an alternative Jim?




=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

Also, I think one should be careful in pointing out errors...what if your wrong, and you directed some people to play something incorrectly...and this "error" costs a guy his match. Ouch!!! How exactly do you make up for that!

I agree with that too. Unless you are sure about the rule, you could be making matters much, much worse.

I think it is both arrogant and pompous for anyone to wonder around the tourney room pointing out errors...unasked and unwanted. Which probably explains why the "Pitman" is all for it.

The roving rule monitor is not a good thing either, but if in observing a match, usually one of the last to be completed in the round, and you see grievous rule errors being made that will decide the outcome, why not intercede?

In a tense game situation, with a crowd around the players concerned rule errors are more likely to happen. Pointing out errors here may not be such a bad thing.




=Jim=

 

[Sparafucil3]

My vote is an empahtic NO. We all know there is no such thing as a perfect (rules wise) playing of ASL. The rules are too complicated and in depth to get everything right every game, no matter how hard we try. If I or my opponent make an error it is up to us to discover it and not for you to interject usless we ask you to. I have been both aided and hindered by outside help and I am never happy for either. If you feel really compelled to offer help, then please wait until the game is over and then offer your explanation. If it is something I missed that allowed my opponent to win all I ask is that you do not do it front of the guy that just (hopefully) worked his butt off to beat me. He deserves his win and should not have someone outside the game taking away some of his well deserved feelings of satisfaction of a game well played. -- jim

 

[Jim McLeod]

You're two turns into a usually timed round of a tourney, and who knows if the improperly setup units have had an impact? (we had a whole thread on what to do with just an improperly setup Gun on the forum..) The guys have no time to restart..who wins? Does nosey Parker have a right to screw-up their game..which they might be having fun at? The screw-up might not even effect the outcome, they just are playing the scenario "wrong" in nosey Parker's opinion.

Yes, once the game is in motion, pointing out the incorrectly setup maps is moot. Let them play.

If they have not yet begun to play, why not point out the error?




=Jim=

 

[Jim McLeod]

So I commented bad dice or some other binnal thing and the NEW American player said its pretty tought attacking against 75 cannister! :surprise:
Says I " Germans don't have cannister." The German player looks a bit uncomfortable and says he thought he'd read somewhere they did.

Lee, what if you happen to be watching when that first "canister" round is fired? Do you say something then?




=Jim=