Kibitzing

In tournament play, should rule errors be pointed out during play?

  • YES

    Votes: 45 42.1%
  • NO

    Votes: 62 57.9%

  • Total voters
    107
  • Poll closed .

Jim McLeod

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
3,332
Reaction score
11
Location
Manitoba
Country
llCanada
Gents,

I have long believed that no one should comment on any game in progress during a tournament. That meant, if I saw one player leaving out a DRM on a TH attempt, I would say not a thing.

However, I am now beginning to question that aspect of Kibitzing.

I would never, ever tell a player how to play his match, make suggestions or comment on his play during the match.

But, what if Joe newbie is playing Max the grog and Max leaves out DRM on a TH DR. If Max gets the hit, Joe the newbie will likely lose the game. I am beginning to consider the wisdom of making such an error known to the players involved.

The same could be said for other rule errors.

I am not saying that each match should be refereed. But, if observers are observing and they see a mistake being made that will have a major impact on the games outcome, perhaps a comment should be made.

What do you think?

And just for yucks, I will attach a poll to this Q'




=Jim=
 

Doughboy

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
999
Reaction score
4
Location
Tonto from Toronto
Country
llCanada
Jim McLeod said:
I am not saying that each match should be refereed. But, if observers are observing and they see a mistake being made that will have a major impact on the games outcome, perhaps a comment should be made.

What do you think?

And just for yucks, I will attach a poll to this Q'

=Jim=
As a general rule and courtesy outsiders should not intrude by pointing these things out between two players. The only time when it is OK is if the players need some feedback from others.
Sometimes it is so hard to resist helping, but looking at from the player's perspective it can really disrupt their concentration and enjoyment of the game.
 

PZchala

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
397
Reaction score
9
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
I voted "yes", only because I wouldn't mind if someone were to point it out in a game I was playing, wether it be my error or my opponents error. However, I don't think that I would point out errors if I was the observer, unless I knew very well the players that I was observing.

Now that I am writing about it, I think the answer should be "no", unless it's the TD who happens to be doing the observing. If you consider that part of the competition is how well you know the rules, then it should be left up to the players to live and die and figure how to handle their errors.
 

Jack Dionne

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
933
Reaction score
3
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
Country
llCanada
Good thread Jim

I remember watching two veteran players at a tournement once and they both made mistakes; I sat there and kept my mouth shut. As much as I wanted to say something I did not. On the other hand I was watching two new guys play and I asked them if they would mind me stepping in if I happened to see something not correct, they both agreed. I asked for permission first before the dice started rolling.
 

Fred Ingram

Average Player
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
2,944
Reaction score
196
Location
Winnebago, IL USA
Country
llUnited States
Jack Dionne said:
Good thread Jim

I remember watching two veteran players at a tournement once and they both made mistakes; I sat there and kept my mouth shut. As much as I wanted to say something I did not. On the other hand I was watching two new guys play and I asked them if they would mind me stepping in if I happened to see something not correct, they both agreed. I asked for permission first before the dice started rolling.
I remember walking by a game which just started at the Chicago Open tournament a few years ago. There was a HUGE mistake in interpreting the setup (units were onboard which should be entering from offboard).

The tournament rules said no kibitzing - so I kept my mouth shut. After the game was decided, I mentioned this fact to both players (they both said they wished I would have said something at the beginning).

They decided the game was moot and attempted to replay the scenario within the alloted time (not sure how well that one worked out)

If I ever see something like this again (which is a lot more serious problem than a missed DRM) I would notifiy the tournament director and he can decide the ehtics in the matter.
 
Last edited:

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
I voted yes, but let me add, I wouldn't say squat, if I asked if I could comment on something I saw, aqnd the answer was no.

Some newbies want to find their way on their own. Pointing out something, might offend them more than the other maybe more experienced player.

You learn more from mistakes than careful coaching.
 

Jack Dionne

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
933
Reaction score
3
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
Country
llCanada
Fred Ingram said:
I remember walking by a game which just started at the Chicago Open tournament a few years ago. There was a HUGE mistake in interpreting the setup (units were onboard which should be entering from offboard).

The tournament rules said no kibitzing - so I kept my mouth shut. After the game was decided, I mentioned this fact to both players.

They decided the game was moot and attempted to replay the scenario within the alloted time (not sure how well that one worked out)

If I ever see something like this again (which is a lot more serious problem than a missed DRM, I would notifiy the tournament director and he can tell them earlier in the cycle.
I think in that situation I would have said something.
 

cujo8-1

The Earl of Burgundy
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,565
Reaction score
31
Location
ThunderDome
Country
llUnited States
I am OK with having things pointed out during a friendly game, but don't believe anything should be said by anyone during a tournament. I am the kind of person who will go back after a game to check the rules in order to learn from my mistakes, etc. I think a person learns best from experiences both good and bad and I believe most people would get upset with any help given their opponent during a tourney game. A tournament situation is usually tense enough as it is.
 

da priest

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2003
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
10
Location
Lebanon, Mo., turn r
Jack Dionne said:
I think in that situation I would have said something.
Interesting, you do realize the "erroneously" setup dude would automatically lose those wrongly setup troops, and probably the game?:nervous:

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.:alien:
 

Jack Dionne

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
933
Reaction score
3
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
Country
llCanada
da priest said:
Interesting, you do realize the "erroneously" setup dude would automatically lose those wrongly setup troops, and probably the game?:nervous:

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.:alien:
I am glad you pointed that out. I guess I should keep my big mouth shut in that situation. Jim will correct me if I am wrong on the next point but the tournement being held this September here in Winnipeg there are specific rules for all games played. It is both player responsibility to verify the order of battle and the set up area before play even starts.

Side note it would be nice to see you come up to Winnipeg for the tournement.
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,728
Reaction score
562
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
Jim McLeod said:
But, what if Joe newbie is playing Max the grog and Max leaves out DRM on a TH DR. If Max gets the hit, Joe the newbie will likely lose the game. I am beginning to consider the wisdom of making such an error known to the players involved.
The problem with pointing out errors is, when do you stop? Are you going to stand there for the whole scenario in order to catch errors for _BOTH_ sides. I don't think it is fair to walk up and catch one guys error, then wonder off while the other guy blows a rule or two. So, unless you plan on staying to the conclusion to help _BOTH_ players catch errors then I think you should keep your (collective "your") pie hole shut.
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,194
Reaction score
760
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
I think that errors should only be pointed out if the players ask.....

Peace

Roger
 

Psycho

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,066
Reaction score
942
Location
rectum
Country
llUkraine
If a tournament game I would never say anything. Watching VASL if I notice something I think is a mistake I might pm the guy that made the mistake and point it out. Then it's up to him on whether to say anything.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,056
Reaction score
2,122
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Tater said:
The problem with pointing out errors is, when do you stop? Are you going to stand there for the whole scenario in order to catch errors for _BOTH_ sides. I don't think it is fair to walk up and catch one guys error, then wonder off while the other guy blows a rule or two. So, unless you plan on staying to the conclusion to help _BOTH_ players catch errors then I think you should keep your (collective "your") pie hole shut.
That is a really silly argument. We are not talking about pointing out bad strategy or bad tactics, but rather pointing out a rules error. There is no such thing as pointing out a rules error for a "side." A rules error is a rules error, regardless of whether or not it affects any player negatively or positively.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,056
Reaction score
2,122
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
I disagree with most of the comments people have made. If my opponent and I were playing a game incorrectly somehow, I wouldn't (and haven't) minded it if it were pointed out to me. How could I? By definition, we were doing something wrong. I have certainly appreciated in the past when people have noticed something wrong my opponent and I were doing. I cannot at the moment remember any time I have resented it.

Just within the past year, there was a time where I walked by a table where two ASLers were playing and noticed that they had not set up the maps correctly for whatever scenario it was they were beginning to play. I pointed this out and they were quite grateful, as otherwise their game would have been ruined. The notion that I should have kept my mouth shut in such a situation seems really strange to me.

I certainly think that "kibbitzing" in the form of offering suggestions is a no-no. I also think that "kibbitzing" in the form of asking questions is a no-no; last year I witnessed a championship game in a tournament where an onlooker several times asked questions ("Has he done X yet? Has his HIP guy come out yet? etc.) that even by their asking, regardless of whether the question was answered or not, could possibly remind one of the players about something or somehow affect the playing of the scenario.

I also think you should keep your mouth shut even about the rules if you are inexperienced, if you are just doubtful (as opposed to sure) if a rule is being played correctly, or if it is minor and not of real import.

But this is a game in which we all play by the same rules and should be playing by the same rules.
 

JimWhite

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
1,447
Reaction score
460
Location
Newark
Country
llUnited States
Fred Ingram said:
I remember walking by a game which just started at the Chicago Open tournament a few years ago. There was a HUGE mistake in interpreting the setup (units were onboard which should be entering from offboard)...After the game was decided, I mentioned this fact to both players [and]...They decided the game was moot...
As a by-far-from expert player who just likes to have fun when he gets the chance to play the game...this is what I would have suggested to my opponent...that the game was moot...despite what the previous outcome had been.

Since my life doesn't revolve around winning and losing a game...even if I had won it would have not been a satisfactory experience knowing I had done so under such circumstances.

Then of course we have the other perspective on the playing of a game....

da priest said:
Interesting, you do realize the "erroneously" setup dude would automatically lose those wrongly setup troops, and probably the game?:nervous:

And please don't second guess his opponent's reaction.:alien:
So Ron...correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will)...I guess what you're saying is the opponent of the person who made this mistake would most likely force the illegally setup units to be removed...thus almost assuring victory instead of allowing the error to be correcting and trying to win through skill and experience?

If so...is this self-serving, win-at-all-costs attitude a regular feature of tournaments?
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,205
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
I voted no, but I have a nasty habit of kibitzing developed by years of playtesting--you don't want a playtest to be decided by a player getting a rule majorly wrong.

And I don't go to tournaments often, so take my no with a "he'll never have to put that in practice" background.
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,728
Reaction score
562
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
Pitman said:
That is a really silly argument. We are not talking about pointing out bad strategy or bad tactics, but rather pointing out a rules error. There is no such thing as pointing out a rules error for a "side." A rules error is a rules error, regardless of whether or not it affects any player negatively or positively.
I know exactly what we are talking about...:rolleyes:

Unless you plan on sitting down at the table for the whole game to point out all errors by both sides you should keep your mouth shut. Also, I think one should be careful in pointing out errors...what if your wrong, and you directed some people to play something incorrectly...and this "error" costs a guy his match. Ouch!!! How exactly do you make up for that!

I think it is both arrogant and pompous for anyone to wonder around the tourney room pointing out errors...unasked and unwanted. Which probably explains why the "Pitman" is all for it.
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,728
Reaction score
562
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
Pitman said:
I disagree with most of the comments people have made. If my opponent and I were playing a game incorrectly somehow, I wouldn't (and haven't) minded it if it were pointed out to me. How could I? By definition, we were doing something wrong. I have certainly appreciated in the past when people have noticed something wrong my opponent and I were doing. I cannot at the moment remember any time I have resented it.
Oh, so just any hairy a*sed goomba walks up and tells you that your playing it wrong and you go with it...pffft...not me bro. Watch if you want but keep your comments to yourself.

Making rules errors is part of the game _AND_ a tourney is suppose to test players abilities...rules ability included. It ain't about walking around acting as the tourney crutch!

Just within the past year, there was a time where I walked by a table where two ASLers were playing and noticed that they had not set up the maps correctly for whatever scenario it was they were beginning to play. I pointed this out and they were quite grateful, as otherwise their game would have been ruined. The notion that I should have kept my mouth shut in such a situation seems really strange to me.
Prior to play is different. During play...mind your own bid-ness.

But this is a game in which we all play by the same rules and should be playing by the same rules.
Again, if you are going to point out one rules error then you need to pull up a chair and sit down for the whole game. I mean if it means so much to you that we all play by the "same rules" then you are obligated to do so.
 
Top