Journal 8?

pdutram

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
537
Reaction score
72
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
Try asking the New England Patriots about the plays they will practice next week to prepare for their next game, Paul.
As I said, rudamentory information. That would equate with what type of plays the Patriots ran during the game, not peeking into their playbook or gameplan.

Let me bring this down to the most fundamental level for you. If you were researching the history of one of your "pet projects" and the person with the information you needed refused to share it with you, would that just make your day, or would you be slightly annoyed?
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Let me bring this down to the most fundamental level for you. You want a company's proprietary information. They don't want to give it to you. They don't have to give it to you. There is no reason why they should give it to you. Just live with it.
 

pdutram

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
537
Reaction score
72
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
Let me bring this down to the most fundamental level for you. You want a company's proprietary information. They don't want to give it to you. They don't have to give it to you. There is no reason why they should give it to you.
Nicely evaded Mark. Could it be you don't want to answer the question because you too would not be happy in similar circumstances?

Just live with it.
Oh, I will; it's no more than a minor annoyance.

The thread was about the issue of providing inconsequensual information to a fellow hobbiest, not about how I feel.
 

Darrell Andersen

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
3,623
Reaction score
178
Location
Cedar Rapids, IA
Country
llUnited States
"inconsequensual information"

Paul, while I respect and enjoy your project, I have to agree with the Pitster here. If MMP or anyone else wants to keep the details of their playtest/development processes to themselves I feel that is their right. Keeping any information, even if it is consequential or not, as close to the vest as they'd like is up to the producer.
 

pdutram

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
537
Reaction score
72
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
"inconsequensual information"

Paul, while I respect and enjoy your project, I have to agree with the Pitster here. If MMP or anyone else wants to keep the details of their playtest/development processes to themselves I feel that is their right. Keeping any information, even if it is consequential or not, as close to the vest as they'd like is up to the producer.
Darrell, I agree. I'm just disappointed in their current decision.
 

James Taylor

I love women with brains
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
6,486
Reaction score
377
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
All I can say is Paul is the one who comes through this thread looking the most reasonable.

I have no problem with MMP's decision not to share their info with him. I also have no problem with him expressing is disappointment in that decision.

I give him kudos not only for having the passion to do what he is doing, but also for sticking to being civil and polite in his discussions.

JT
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,827
Reaction score
542
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
All I can say is Paul is the one who comes through this thread looking the most reasonable.
I agree...which is probably why Chas and Pitman were giving him a hard time.

I give him kudos not only for having the passion to do what he is doing, but also for sticking to being civil and polite in his discussions.
Ditto...
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
You have a peculiar idea of "civil and polite," Jim. Calling everybody who has a different opinion than you a "luddite" strikes me as neither.
 

pdutram

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
537
Reaction score
72
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
You have a peculiar idea of "civil and polite," Jim. Calling everybody who has a different opinion than you a "luddite" strikes me as neither.
You keep saying this Mark, as if repeating it will make it true. But I never said everybody who has a different opinion than me is a "luddite", my friend.
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,827
Reaction score
542
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
You keep saying this Mark, as if repeating it will make it true. But I never said everybody who has a different opinion than me is a "luddite", my friend.
Don't sweat it man...Pitman thinks all designers who don't do it his way are "lazy". ;)
 

Treadhead

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
3,140
Reaction score
216
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
Just now, you have stated the following:

But I never said everybody who has a different opinion than me is a "luddite", my friend.
Ah, you want to split hairs...

What you actually stated was:

pdutram said:
I should have prefaced this thread by stating that "all those who only play the 'official' scenarios, or 'don't really care' about unpublished scenarios (although they undoubtedly own some of them) need not respond" as your ludite views are well known.
Now, as one who only plays Official scenarios, and also as one who really doesn't care about (nor own) unpublished scenarios, it seems to me here that you consider my views to be "ludite" [sic].

So yeah, mister. You did use (and not only spelled incorrectly but also in an improper context) the term "ludite" [sic] to refer to my views, which also happen to be different than yours.

While not using the term to describe everyone with a different opinion than yours, you certainly DID use the term "ludite" [sic] in reference to the different opinion about the importance keeping this ... record.

I must say, it is the first time in my life that my views on anything were proclaimed to be "ludite" [sic].

Here, I'll say it for you: "Give me an incomplete record, or give me death!"
What daft histrionics.

You are comparing your incomplete list of unpublished and ultimately meaningless scenarios, to the concept of human liberty. ????

Give me a break.

Your attitude is sad.
You need to get a grip, pal.

You have a wildly exaggerated sense of self-importance about this project of yours.
 
Last edited:

pdutram

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
537
Reaction score
72
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
What you actually stated was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdutram
I should have prefaced this thread by stating that "all those who only play the 'official' scenarios, or 'don't really care' about unpublished scenarios (although they undoubtedly own some of them) need not respond" as your ludite views are well known.

Now, as one who only plays Official scenarios, and also as one who really doesn't care about (nor own) unpublished scenarios, it seems to me here that you consider my views to be "ludite" [sic].


Yes, I do think such a narrow viewpoint is unfortunate. My use of luddite was in reference to that viewpoint, not to any particular person. And I don't ask anyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you clearly don't care about other scenarios, then you are working from a biased viewpoint. It's like saying, "I don't watch the NY Yankees because I don't like the NY Yankees". So we know not to expect you to say anything good about the Yankees. My MASLSL is obviously not useful to you. So, your biased comments about it are not germaine.

While not using the term to describe everyone with a different opinion than yours, you certainly DID use the term "ludite" [sic] in reference to the different opinion about the importance keeping this ... record.

Read the statement again, carefully. It's not about "the importance of keeping this record". It's about caring or not caring about documenting and crediting unpublished scenarios.

Quote:
Here, I'll say it for you: "Give me an incomplete record, or give me death!"

What daft histrionics.

You are comparing your incomplete list of unpublished and ultimately meaningless scenarios, to the concept of human liberty. ????

Give me a break.


Yes, I should have applied the sarcasm smiley to that comment. :eek:

Quote:
Your attitude is sad.
You need to get a grip, pal.
You have a wildly exaggerated sense of self-importance about this project of yours.


The MASLSL is not that important to me personally. I could give it up tomorrow, and ASL too for that matter, without much regret. I keep similar scenario lists on other game series I play (retirement provides lots of spare time). It started as a "pet project" of little consequence. I decided to share it to see if it would be useful to others; no big deal one way or the other. But if I continue with it, I will continue to try to make it as complete as possible.
 

James Taylor

I love women with brains
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
6,486
Reaction score
377
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
If Paul has gotten a little defensive in this thread its because he has been attacked and belittled.

If there is an "ASL Elitism" then the attacks on Paul are an example of it.

The guy is trying to do something... he's putting in his time to do it. Why crap all over it? If its not important to you then just leave it be.

From my perspective there seems to be some other conversation going on or that has gone on... because there seems to be an inordinate amount of naysaying to what Paul is trying to do.

JT
 
Last edited:

Faded 8-1

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
1,887
Reaction score
831
Location
Ohio
First name
Mark
Country
llUnited States
If Paul has gotten a little defensive in this thread its because he has been attacked and belittled.

If there is an "ASL Elitism" then the attacks on Paul are an example of it.

The guy is trying to do something... he's putting in his time to do it. Why crap all over it? If its not important to you then just leave it be.

From what my perspective there seems to be some other conversation going on or that has gone on... because there seems to be an inordinate amount of naysaying to what Paul is trying to do.

JT
That's my impression too. Paul has been quite civil in answering his critics. But it seems critics are crawling from the woodwork here, for some odd reason.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
That's my impression too. Paul has been quite civil in answering his critics. But it seems critics are crawling from the woodwork here, for some odd reason.
Actually, people are crawling from the woodwork to defend MMP from Paul's rather unreasonable criticisms.
 

James Taylor

I love women with brains
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
6,486
Reaction score
377
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
Actually, people are crawling from the woodwork to defend MMP from Paul's rather unreasonable criticisms.
Everyone is free to evaluate what Paul has said about MMP their own way, and respond if they like.

Personally, I think Brian and Chas have stated MMP's position just fine.

JT
 

Portal

The Eminem of ASL
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,348
Reaction score
56
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
Paul's remarks were more than fair considering MMP made the choice to make playtest scenarios available to a public (no invite required) mini-tourney attendee audience.

MMP chose not to share their information. Any remarks with respect to their choice are legitimate.
 

Tater

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
9,827
Reaction score
542
Location
Ardmore, TN
Country
llUnited States
Actually, people are crawling from the woodwork to defend MMP from Paul's rather unreasonable criticisms.
I don't think Paul's comments to/about MMP even qualify as criticism...much less being "unreasonable".

If they could be considered criticism...it would only be marginally so.

I know who the "unreasonable" folks are in this thread...Paul isn't one of them.
 

ScoobySnacks

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
530
Reaction score
10
Location
CT
First name
Mike
Country
llUnited States
Paul, it appears to me you brought everything upon yourself. I don't even see the relevancy of your complaint to this thread, unless Journal 8 will include these scenario's in question. If that is the case I don't blame MMP if they want to wait until their release to give you any information. It would appear that you have some opinion where your wants have become entitlements, which of course is inviting other to jump on you.
Being negative is what drives threads like these, if you agree then why waste the time to say it.

Yes, I do think such a narrow viewpoint is unfortunate. My use of luddite was in reference to that viewpoint, not to any particular person. And I don't ask anyone to adopt my viewpoint, but if you clearly don't care about other scenarios, then you are working from a biased viewpoint. It's like saying, "I don't watch the NY Yankees because I don't like the NY Yankees". So we know not to expect you to say anything good about the Yankees. My MASLSL is obviously not useful to you. So, your biased comments about it are not germaine.

I do find this quote puzzling, because it does come across as elitist. If someone does not agree with you then their opinions are not valid and not allowed to be voiced. I think you need to accept that if someone does not like your pet project, their opinion is just as valid. They have legitimate reasons not to care about this information. You can't belittle opposite points of view and not expect to be attacked, but face it their comments are entirely germaine. They probably agree with MMP's thoughts and reflect the decision and the reasoning behind the decision. I really find your Yankee analogy dumb. I'm a Red Sox fan, I hate the Yankee's so I can't speak about them? Why would you just ASSUME everything I would say is bad? Just becuase someone has an opinion does not make them blinded from reality and definately not to be dismissed or to self proclaim (in advance) ANYTHING they say irrelevant and to be ignored.
 

pdutram

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
537
Reaction score
72
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
I don't even see the relevancy of your complaint to this thread, unless Journal 8 will include these scenario's in question.
Yes, MMP has said that they will be in Journal 8.

It would appear that you have some opinion where your wants have become entitlements, which of course is inviting other to jump on you.
I don't see how you could misread my posts, especially the preceeding one, and think that I believe I'm entitled to anything.

If someone does not agree with you then their opinions are not valid and not allowed to be voiced. I think you need to accept that if someone does not like your pet project, their opinion is just as valid. They have legitimate reasons not to care about this information. You can't belittle opposite points of view and not expect to be attacked, but face it their comments are entirely germaine. They probably agree with MMP's thoughts and reflect the decision and the reasoning behind the decision.
I have never said that anyone doesn't have the right to voice their opinion. But if you enter the discussion with the opinion that the MASLSL is useless to you personally, what further attention am I obliged to pay to you?

I also never said MMP's decision was wrong, or not understandable. I just said that it seems unfortunate to me.

I really find your Yankee analogy dumb. I'm a Red Sox fan, I hate the Yankee's so I can't speak about them? Why would you just ASSUME everything I would say is bad? Just because someone has an opinion does not make them blinded from reality and definately not to be dismissed or to self proclaim (in advance) ANYTHING they say irrelevant and to be ignored.
I am also a life-long Red Sox fan. :hail: So you can speak about the Yankees all you want as far as I'm concerned. :clap: But if you start with "I hate the Yankees", I doubt that many Yankee fans are going to listen to you. So too, if you start with "Your pet-project MASLSL is useless to me and you're a self-important entitled elitest", I'm not liable to pay any further attention to your comments, am I.
 
Top