Japanese DC hero double check Q

SFiedler

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Hi


NRBH


May a MMC possessing a DC create a DC (or Tank hunter hero) after expending MFs, i.e during it´s mph??

/S
 

ctewks

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Yes

G1.421 TANK-HUNTER (T-H) HEROES: An armed, Good Order Japanese Infantry squad/HS that
in its MPh is within eight MF of,
or at the start of its APh is ADJACENT to,
or during the enemy MPh is able to conduct a CC Reaction Fire attack vs,
or at the start of the CCPh is the DEFENDER in the same Location as,
 

hongkongwargamer

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Additional Note .. G1.42 ... An attempt made in the MMC's MPh costs no MF (and hence qualifies neither it nor any resulting Hero as a target of Defensive First Fire), but if it is to be made after the MMC has expended MF it must await the resolution of all Defensive First Fire prompted by the MMC's immediately preceding MF expenditure.
 

Eagle4ty

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But not after having spent 4 MF or more:readit:
I sometimes get tunnel vision and do not see what's in front of me (especially when it comes to the ASLRB), but I simply cannot find that in the rules. What you're saying is that a Japanese squad that is currently making a Banzai Charge or moving with a Leader or has declared Double-Time and has expended 4MF may not create a T-H/DC Hero? How did you arrive at that conclusion?
 

jrv

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I sometimes get tunnel vision and do not see what's in front of me (especially when it comes to the ASLRB), but I simply cannot find that in the rules. What you're saying is that a Japanese squad that is currently making a Banzai Charge or moving with a Leader or has declared Double-Time and has expended 4MF may not create a T-H/DC Hero? How did you arrive at that conclusion?
G1.423 "A T-H Hero created during a friendly MPh by a MMC that has already expended MF has two MF (one MF, if that MMC is conducting a Banzai Charge) deducted from his eight-MF allotment for each MF that the MMC has already expended."

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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A THH can normally go 8. However for every MF that the originating unit spent out of 4, you take 2 off.
OK, I see that but it certainly doesn't seem to follow that he cannot be created on an expenditure of 4MF or more, especially if from a Banzai unit where T-H Hero's would only 1MF is deducted from its 8MF total for each MF expended by the MMC, or that there be any MF available to the T-H Hero after creation (i.e. on an expenditure of the MMC's 4th MF). In the instance of a Banzai Charge it would seem to me he has an additional 4MF to expend if the MMC had expended 4MF already as the MF deduction is from the T-H Hero's 8MF total and NOT a combined deduction of 4MF penalty plus the 4MF the MMC had expended. In the case of a unit not conducting a Banzai Charge where is the statement it may not create a THH on it's expenditure of the 4th MF if it had reached a target hex allowing the creation of a THH (say a hex containing a PB/Bunker)?

I really respect the opinions and rules understandings of George & Brian, but in this instance I just can't see where they got a rule that prohibits the creation of a THH upon or after the expenditure of a 4th MF spent by the MMC. I Certainly see it may be true in some circumstances, but their replies seem to indicate a hard and fast all encompassing stipulation.
 

von Marwitz

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I really respect the opinions and rules understandings of George & Brian, but in this instance I just can't see where they got a rule that prohibits the creation of a THH upon or after the expenditure of a 4th MF spent by the MMC. I Certainly see it may be true in some circumstances, but their replies seem to indicate a hard and fast all encompassing stipulation.
I agree with Eagle4ty on this one.

Situation:
Take the following example - let's term it "The Tank Has To Go":
A couple of Japanese squads with some DCs and a leader are poised to make a Banzai Charge, because "the tank has to go". Scores of evil Americans all around - and of course the tank itself want to prevent it.
The tricky part is that the cursed tank is well in LOS but 4 MF away.

Rules:
"G1.421 TANK-HUNTER (T-H) HEROES:
An armed, Good Order Japanese Infantry squad/HS that in its MPh is within eight MF of, or at the start of its APh is ADJACENT to, or during the enemy MPh is able to conduct a CC Reaction Fire attack vs, or at the start of the CCPh is the DEFENDER in the same Location as, an enemy AFV in its LOS may at that time make one attempt to create a T-H Hero7 [EXC: no attempt is allowed if that MMC is marked with a Prep/Bounding/First/Final Fire or Pin/TI counter]. It does so by making a Final dr (Δ) of ≤ 3; cumulative drm are +1 if a HS, +2 if a Conscript, and -2 if possessing a DC it will give to that Hero (see 1.424). An Original 6 dr pins that MMC unless it is conducting a Banzai Charge.
A T-H Hero creation attempt is a "?"-loss activity (A12.141). An attempt made in the MMC's MPh costs no MF (and hence qualifies neither it nor any resulting Hero as a target of Defensive First Fire), but if it is to be made after the MMC has expended MF it must await the resolution of all Defensive First Fire prompted by the MMC's immediately preceding MF expenditure. An attempt made in the CCPh must await the determination of any possible Ambush, and the resolution of all (if any) ATTACKER Ambush attacks, in that Location. A stack of MMC may attempt to create T-H Heroes "simultaneously", but must make individual dr; if this is done during a friendly MPh/APh, those MMC who rolled "simultaneously" can then move/advance in that phase only as a stack. When a T-H Hero is created (or voluntarily loses HIP; 1.422), the AFV (or unit/Fortification; 1.424) that allowed his appearance becomes his Designated Target. If ≥ two such targets qualify, the T-H Hero's owner must choose one of them as the Designated Target."

"G1.424 DC HERO: A unit allowed to create a T-H Hero may, if possessing a DC, make such an attempt in its own MPh provided it is within eight MF of and has a LOS to any enemy unit/Gun and/or to any enemy-Controlled hex that contains a Known Fortification counter; being within eight MF of and having a LOS to an enemy AFV is not required in this case. If the T-H Hero is created (the DC adds a -2 drm to this attempt; 1.421), that DC is automatically Transferred to him and he is then termed a DC Hero. A DC Hero is treated the same as a T-H Hero except as stated otherwise. A DC Hero may not Place/Throw a DC in the normal manner, and may not make a CC attack.
A DC Hero must declare as his Designated Target (and hence during his MPh must Banzai Charge) the enemy unit/Gun/Fortification that allowed his creation. When in that Target's Location (or hex, for a pillbox) during or at the end of his MPh, he may detonate his DC at that time (and does not expend a MF as per A23.61 to Place it), provided he has survived all Defensive First Fire allowed against him by his immediately previous MF expenditure. The DC attack is otherwise resolved as if Placed [EXC: if he is above a Bank or Panji counter, see 8.212 or 9.211 respectively; if he is above a Wire counter, treat DC as Placed for purposes of Wire Clearance (B26.51) and as Thrown for all other purposes]. See also 1.612."

My take:
The Japanese figures that his chances to enter the hex during the MPh with THH are worse if he creates them early on. If they become wounded on the way, they might not even be able to enter the tank's hex. As a couple of dozens of lives do not matter - "the tank has to go" after all - chances to actually get into the tank's hex against the withering US Defensive First Fire might be better if the full squads run for it. They can fail 2 MCs (Stripe & CR) and still be GO and able to create a THH, which is then unwounded and already where he wants to be. Much better than failing 2 MCs as a THH along the way. The morale of the squads accompanied by a leader during the Banzai charge might even be higher compared to the THH/DC Heroes alone.

G1.421 says the attempt to create a THH costs 0 (zero) MF. G1.424 says that a DC-Hero can detonate its DC during or at the end of his MPh. So even if the number of MF still available to the THH after reduction as per G1.423 is 0 (zero) it is still not at the end of its MPh because it may still detonate the DC. This is basically the same situation as if the DC Hero would have entered the tank's hex on his 8th MF and after that detonating his DC when before that having charged across 7 Open Ground hexes. Nobody would contest, that he could detonate his DC in the latter situation. In both cases, the DC Hero has 0 MF left when he pushed the button at the end of his MPh. In the rules I see nothing that mandates that the THH/DC Hero still needs to have MF remaining when created.

As an added twist, if created with 0 MF left, I believe that no Defensive Fire would be possible against that THH/DC hero, which might be of advantage. After all, G1.424 states that he may "detonate his DC at that time (and does not expend a MF as per A23.61 to Place it), provided he has survived all Defensive First Fire allowed against him by his immediately previous MF expenditure." As there has been no previous MF expenditure by the THH/DC-Hero at all (but only by the creating MMC), no shots vs. him. And it would only be the THH/DC-Hero that blows up - not the entire unit which created him.

von Marwitz
 
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Mister T

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A clarification:
Since the OP did not refer to banzaiing infantry, i assumed the regular case of infantry movement in my initial assertion (i.e you may create a THH/DCH when banzaiing and spending 4 MF or more)

An interpretation:
i am reluctant to vet vM's interpretation. When the infantry has moved 4 MF, it means implicitly that the movement of the THH "still in its womb" is over as it has "practically" run out of MF. Also the benefits quoted by vM are genuine, but for me they bypass the regular rule and provide an undue avantage. I admit however he issue is legit for discussion/challenge.
 

Michael R

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If the squad with the DC reaches the target hex, can’t it detonate the DC itself?
 

von Marwitz

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If the squad with the DC reaches the target hex, can’t it detonate the DC itself?
Yes, it can (G1.424 last sentence). But this would lose you a squad or a HS that blows up. If the same squad creates a DC-Hero IN the target hex, only the DC-Hero will blow up and the squad/HS will survive - and possibly be able to TPBF in the AFPh on top of that. And I reckon, it could still blow itself up if the creation attempt for the DC-Hero failed.

von Marwitz
 

MajorDomo

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Yes, it can (G1.424 last sentence). But this would lose you a squad or a HS that blows up. If the same squad creates a DC-Hero IN the target hex, only the DC-Hero will blow up and the squad/HS will survive - and possibly be able to TPBF in the AFPh on top of that. And I reckon, it could still blow itself up if the creation attempt for the DC-Hero failed.

von Marwitz
I have created DC hero from banzaiing infantry and then watch him take off like Jesse Owens in front of the banzaiing horde to pave the way. Once won a Sittang Bridge scenario by blowing away a foxhole unit next to the bridge.

However, I am doubtful that you can move 8 mp as banzai infantry and then generate a DC or THH. If you could, that would be an often used tactic for Japanese banzai infantry. Enter an enemy hex, hand off the DC to a hero and watch it attack the enemy with no consequence. Failing to generate the DC Hero still allows the Japanese unit to self destruct and detonate the DC.

Very powerful in my opinion. Also remember that only the Japanese can set off DC in their own hex.

I hope that the ability to create a DC hero ends when out of MP or after entering an enemy occupied hex, but I also hope for world peace.

Rich
 
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Doug Leslie

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If the Japanese MMC has expended its entire MF allotment, does this not mean that its MPh has ended and that it is accordingly too late to attempt to generate a THH?
 

klasmalmstrom

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If the Japanese MMC has expended its entire MF allotment, does this not mean that its MPh has ended and that it is accordingly too late to attempt to generate a THH?
One has to declare a unit's end of its MPh, and it could declare Double Time after expending its 4th MF as well.
 

Fiedler

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Got an answer from Perry

1. Yes.
2. 4MF.
3. No. The parent MMC conducting a Banzai Charge does not have a "target".

....Perry
MMP
On February 5, 2018 at 11:33 AM Stefan Fiedler <stefan@fiedler.se> wrote:

Hi

A japanese Sq has spent 4MFs in a BAnzai charge during Mph.

1, Can this MMC atempt to create a DC Hero?
2. If yes to Q1 how many MFs does the DC hero have at this point?
3, Must it charge teh same target as it´s parent MMC?​
 

von Marwitz

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The questions - and thus answers - are inconclusive, though, with regard to our problem further upthread:

  1. If the Banzaiing parent squad has spent 8MF, can it still create a DC Hero?
  2. Can that DC Hero (self-)detonate with 0MF left, as detonating the DC does not cost any?
However, the third answer does open up other very interesting opportunities:

Let us say, the parent MMC declares its Banzai charge and off they towards their predesignated direction as usual.

Is the DC hero created bound by the HW direction (inclusive of side hexes) of its parent unit?
This, I would find likely and probably sensible.

If not, let us assume that during the Banzai Charge a new enemy unit previously not in range would appear which lies a couple of hexes off 90 degrees to the side, could the DC hero charge that? While the parent unit has to continue its charge along the original HW direction.

Should the latter be legal, it would open up new tactics and opportunities. But as I said - I would assume that this would not b legit.


von Marwitz
 
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