J2.31 Hand-to-Hand CC

BattleSchool

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Am I correct in concluding that during any scenario in which J2.31 is in effect, the ATTACKER may declare Hand-to-Hand CC during Melee?

J2.31 HAND-TO-HAND CC: Hand-to-Hand CC can be declared only by the ATTACKER and only if his involved unit(s) has not been Ambushed (A11.4) this turn, but once declared affects all units of both sides as long as that Melee exists in that Location.
 

jrv

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Yes, in step A8.21B of the ASOP. I don't believe the ATTACKER may make one attack normal then declare hand-to-hand for the next, if that's what you are suggesting. But if one side doesn't (or can't) declare hand-to-hand in one player turn, it may still be declared in later player turns by either player.

JR
 

BattleSchool

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Yes, in step A8.21B of the ASOP. I don't believe the ATTACKER may make one attack normal then declare hand-to-hand for the next, if that's what you are suggesting.

JR
Hypothetical situation:

During the initial CC, the Attacker is the DEFENDER. The Defender (i.e., the ATTACKER) does not declare H-t-H CC, and surviving units are locked in Melee. In the next CCPh, the Attacker is now the ATTACKER. May the Attacker declare H-t-H CC?
 

klasmalmstrom

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Per J2.31 the ATTACKER may declare H-t-H CC - regardless of whether it's the initial round or if it has become a Melee. Who is Scenario Attacker/Defender is not a factor.
 

jrv

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Hypothetical situation:

During the initial CC, the Attacker is the DEFENDER. The Defender (i.e., the ATTACKER) does not declare H-t-H CC, and surviving units are locked in Melee. In the next CCPh, the Attacker is now the ATTACKER. May the Attacker declare H-t-H CC?
Often when fighting against the Japanese the opposing side can't declare hand-to-hand. If the opposing side advances into CC (with no Japanese ambush) and the CC becomes a Melee, in the next player turn the Japanese not only can but must declare hand-to-hand (if possible of course).

JR
 

BattleSchool

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I see that JRV edited his intial response. I just wanted to confirm that an ATTACKER retains the option of declaring H-t-H CC in a later CCPh, as long as H-t-H CC is not declared during the initial CC, or a subsequent CCPh (i.e., during Melee).

Thanks for the responses.
 
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BattleSchool

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Yes, in step A8.21B of the ASOP. I don't believe the ATTACKER may make one attack normal then declare hand-to-hand for the next, if that's what you are suggesting. But if one side doesn't (or can't) declare hand-to-hand in one player turn, it may still be declared in later player turns by either player.

JR
For the record, I wasn't asking if an ATTACKER could split his CC attacks, attacking normally with one attack and using H-t-H for a second attack.
 

jrv

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For the record, I wasn't asking if an ATTACKER could split his CC attacks, attacking normally with one attack and using H-t-H for a second attack.
It's not an unreasonable question if you didn't look at the ASOP. Sometimes it takes me a while to understand the exact nature of a question.

JR
 

BattleSchool

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It's not an unreasonable question if you didn't look at the ASOP. Sometimes it takes me a while to understand the exact nature of a question.

JR
Your nuanced question hadn't occurred to me when I posed my question. I was more interested in nailing down what was meant by the last two words in: "Hand-to-Hand CC can be declared only by the ATTACKER and only if his involved unit(s) has not been Ambushed (A11.4) this turn..." than testing a potential sleaze play.

I appreciate you and Klas taking the time ro read and answer my cryptic query.
 

jrv

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Your nuanced question hadn't occurred to me when I posed my question. I was more interested in nailing down what was meant by the last two words in: "Hand-to-Hand CC can be declared only by the ATTACKER and only if his involved unit(s) has not been Ambushed (A11.4) this turn..." than testing a potential sleaze play.

I appreciate you and Klas taking the time ro read and answer my cryptic query.
Because the situation with Japanese comes up fairly often, with the Japanese declaring hand-to-hand in the second player turn of a CC action, and because I thought it was widely known and "obvious", I was more inclined to think you were asking the more subtle question. But on re-reading I thought it possible you were asking the more direct question. I read the phrase "during Melee" two ways: while Melee was marked or in the middle of a CC resolution.

BTW, you win no prize in the "cryptic query" contest. We have many entrants that are much more adept than you.

JR
 

BattleSchool

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Because the situation with Japanese comes up fairly often, with the Japanese declaring hand-to-hand in the second player turn of a CC action, and because I thought it was widely known and "obvious", I was more inclined to think you were asking the more subtle question. But on re-reading I thought it possible you were asking the more direct question. I read phrase "during Melee" two ways: while Melee was marked or in the middle of a CC resolution.

JR
Fair points. The Japanese were furthest from my mind when I posed the question.

I've been playing a fair amount of DASL lately, along with the occasional ETO scenario where J2.31 is invoked by SSR. I have yet to see anyone in our local ASL cabal take advantage of H-t-H CC while in Melee, especially when doing so would be advantageous. Before I sprung it on someone, I wanted to ensure that I wasn't misinterpreting the intent of the rule.

I suppose my question could have been avoided if I had reflected on the Japanese. But to be honest, until now I never drew a direct connection between the Japanese imperative to use H-t-H CC and J2.31. I guess I subconsciously treated Japanese H-t-H CC as a unique attribute, in part because it is "automatic" rather than voluntary.

Perhaps J2.31 would be more clear if, like G1.64, it included CC/Melee in the text. For example: Hand-to-Hand CC can be declared only by the ATTACKER in CC/Melee, and only if his involved unit(s) has not been Ambushed (A11.4) this turn.."

G1.64 CC: Whenever ≥ one unbroken Japanese Infantry/Cavalry unit is the ATTACKER in CC/Melee or Ambushes the enemy in CC, that CC/Melee automatically becomes Hand-to-Hand (J2.31) unless every such Japanese unit participating in it was Ambushed in that phase and/or is Withdrawing/ pinned.
Thanks for connecting the dots.
 

Khill

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I've been playing a fair amount of DASL lately, along with the occasional ETO scenario where J2.31 is invoked by SSR. I have yet to see anyone in our local ASL cabal take advantage of H-t-H CC while in Melee, especially when doing so would be advantageous. Before I sprung it on someone, I wanted to ensure that I wasn't misinterpreting the intent of the rule.
but that is the best part of DASL. I have always played that the attacker can convert melee to HtH
 

fenyan

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I just sprung this yesterday on my opponent in Brave Little Emchas because I was at the stage of the game where I needed to clear the hex before my opponent's reinforcements could reinforce the melee.
 
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