J19 Merzenhausen Zoo (Pre game NTC ?)

Pacman Ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
590
Reaction score
298
Location
A maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Country
llAustralia
Sorry to necro this thread, but "Dummy Stack" is not defined in the index.
Some context for why this question is here: one of the SSR's for this scenario says:
Immediately prior to the start of play, all non-hidden German Infantry must take a NTC. ... Each Dummy stack takes this NTC with a single DR and has a combined morale of 7.
The situation is this:
14159

Does the 5/8" ? have to take an NTC?
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,778
Reaction score
7,201
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
I think the 8-0 takes a NTC, and the two ? beneath the top ? take a NTC.
 

Pacman Ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
590
Reaction score
298
Location
A maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Country
llAustralia
The question has arisen because the SSR says "Dummy stack", not "Dummy counter", and Will's original question was asking: what exactly is a Dummy stack?

As he said, it's not really defined anywhere. The best I could find was A14.23 (talking about a concealed stack as a Sniper target):
If it contains [no eligible targets] (i.e., is a Dummy stack)
Also A12.11 implies that a Dummy stack is one that doesn't contain a real unit:
the DEFENDER may force the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a non- Dummy unit in that stack to show that an actual force exists there. If he cannot ... the Dummy stack is removed.
My understanding was that a Dummy Stack is a stack that consists of only "?", the example I posted has a real counter in there, therefore it's not a Dummy stack, therefore the 5/8" "?" doesn't have to take an NTC.

OTOH, I take his point (in his example C) that you can have concealed and unconcealed units in the same hex, and they would probably be considered as 2 stacks. But in the screenshot I posted, everything is concealed, so is it considered 1 stack or 2?

If it's 1 stack, then the 5/8" ? doesn't take a NTC because it's not a Dummy stack.

If it's 2 stacks, then it does, because one stack is the concealed leader (which has to take an NTC because it's Infantry) and one stack is the 2 5/8" ?'s (which makes it a Dummy stack).
 

Steven Pleva

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
3,425
Reaction score
1,080
Location
Connecticut
Country
llUnited States
I think the term "Dummy Stack" implies that the entire stack has to be dummies. Therefore, if there is a real unit it is not a Dummy Stack. There are dummy counters on top of the real unit. I would play that the 8-0 takes the NTC while the rest of the stack does not take a NTC. I would hope that Klas would reconsider his earlier answer. JMHO...
Steve
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,778
Reaction score
7,201
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
I think the term "Dummy Stack" implies that the entire stack has to be dummies. Therefore, if there is a real unit it is not a Dummy Stack. There are dummy counters on top of the real unit. I would play that the 8-0 takes the NTC while the rest of the stack does not take a NTC. I would hope that Klas would reconsider his earlier answer. JMHO...
Personally I am thinking this might be just unfortunate wording. To me it seems a tad odd that "?" would be "safe" if stacked with a real unit(s). But then again, perhaps that is the intention.
 

Steven Pleva

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
3,425
Reaction score
1,080
Location
Connecticut
Country
llUnited States
Personally I am thinking this might be just unfortunate wording. To me it seems a tad odd that "?" would be "safe" if stacked with a real unit(s). But then again, perhaps that is the intention.
Perhaps the intent is that a stack without an infantry unit has to take a NTC so there is no way to gain knowledge about what is real just by whether a stack took a NTC or not...
Steve
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
B) 4x 1/2" concealment counters on top of an MMC
NRBH but I was under the impression this was impossible, as the max number of "?" counters sharing a hex with actual units was one. Based I guess on what you quoted:

Multiple concealed units can combine into a concealed stack but must remove the top "?" counter from all but the original concealed (or Dummy) stack.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,778
Reaction score
7,201
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
Perhaps the intent is that a stack without an infantry unit has to take a NTC so there is no way to gain knowledge about what is real just by whether a stack took a NTC or not...
Since the Americans enter from offboard, I think it's most likely those 6x? in the German OB will be used as "pure" dummy stacks - and not placed on real units. Perhaps that's what the designer assumed as well.
 

Pacman Ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
590
Reaction score
298
Location
A maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Country
llAustralia
NRBH but I was under the impression this was impossible, as the max number of "?" counters sharing a hex with actual units was one. Based I guess on what you quoted:

Multiple concealed units can combine into a concealed stack but must remove the top "?" counter from all but the original concealed (or Dummy) stack.
But they can set up like this. A12.1:
No unit can be concealed more than once at any one time, although one or more Dummy counters (12.11) can be placed atop a unit(s).
So, you can have 3 concealment counters on top of a squad, to make it look like there's a HMG and SMC in there.

OTOH, his example D had me scratching my head. Can a lone 1/2" "?" be concealed because it's underneath a 5/8" concealment counter? Or vice versa? The rulebook only seems to talk about "?" counters, so it appears to be OK, but it feels kinda icky... :)
 
Last edited:

Will Fleming

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
4,410
Reaction score
424
Location
Adrift on the Pequod
Country
llUnited States
Pulling a choice section of A12.11 for my devious purposes.

Dummy stacks can be created only during initial setup and among OB-designated "?" reinforcements during their initial turn of entry.

So that means you could never split any dummies initially stacked with real units during play correct? I mean a real unit with dummy "?" counters could never ever separate during play at any time.

Clearly (to this failing mind), a real unit(s) with dummies on top is a concealed stack that contains real unit(s) and a "Dummy Stack(s)". Seems each "dummy counter" is it's own 'dummy stack' if there are multiple in an at start 'stack' as people split them off after initial setup fairly often.

MMP really needs to define these clearly. "Stack" & "Dummy Stack"

My tiny contribution to the clamor for a "3rd edition". :)
 

Pacman Ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
590
Reaction score
298
Location
A maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Country
llAustralia
So that means you could never split any dummies initially stacked with real units during play correct? I mean a real unit with dummy "?" counters could never ever separate during play at any time.
It's worse than that. You don't even need the real unit. That rule says that you can't take a dummy stack and split it into two dummy stacks.
 

Pacman Ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
590
Reaction score
298
Location
A maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Country
llAustralia
Seems each "dummy counter" is it's own 'dummy stack' if there are multiple in an at start 'stack' as people split them off after initial setup fairly often.
This would also be problematic, BTW. If there are 4 "?" in a stack (regardless of whether or not there is a real counter in the same Location), is it pretending to be a squad carrying 2 SW (i.e. 1 dummy stack), or is it pretending to be 3 squads (3 dummy stacks)? Or a squad with a SW and a SMC - is that 1 stack or 2 (if the squad moves together with the SMC, they have to do so as a stack). Do we have to secretly record the make-up of what each dummy stack is pretending to be? :)
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Don't you think that the intention of the SSR is that all concealed units take a NTC, and that where there are only dummy counters, they use the 7 dummy morale by default?
I would not see more than that intention.
 

Pacman Ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
590
Reaction score
298
Location
A maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Country
llAustralia
Don't you think that the intention of the SSR is that all concealed units take a NTC, and that where there are only dummy counters, they use the 7 dummy morale by default?
There are two things going on here - the SSR for this particular scenario, and a more general discussion about the rules for dummy stacks.
 
Top