J175 Bedbug Bite

[klasmalmstrom]

is it not possible pay more than the required MPs requested to enter the last hex to have a better chance to immobilize? ideally the target is a +9 DRM to be sure

The DRM to the ESB DR is the Nationality DRM - which in this case is zero, since it is an American vehicle. The only other DRM is the number of extra MP one wants to gain, which is limited to 25% (FRD) fo the printed MP allotment.

A Ram Kangaroo has a printed MP of 14, so the maximum extra MP it can get is 14 * 0.25 = 3.5 FRD to 3. So the ESB DRM will be +3.


D2.5:
"...The maximum MP gain is limited to one-fourth (FRD) of the vehicle’s printed MP allotment...."

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Enter woods/building with your last MP. Assuming you don't fall into a building cellar you have a very high chance to immobilize.

You would become Bogged, but it is more likely than becoming Immobilized due to ESB.

A Ram Kangaroo entering woods at 1/2 MP would Bog on a DR of +4 (+1 Normal GP, +3 entry of Woods). So it Bogs on 8 or more.

 

[ecz]

I believe this scenario is extremely balanced and I am not saying that "my" German defense cannot be taken. But, I do believe the Brit will need some luck, (and I don't care about the "sleaze"). Besides, from my asl experience, 35 or so years, quality players don't look for sleazes which, IMHO, are as meaningless as the aforementioned one.

nice words on which everyone agrees. But in general I always prefer an house rule to avoid this kind of moves when an official fix/change is not possible, even a gentleman agreement is enough. Otherwise, if my opponent prefers to play using all the rules to take an advantage from an obvious design mistake, I will happily change scenario or opponent.

 

[MajorDomo]

I vote with Enrico's view and suggestions.

ROAR does have it 11-8 in favor of the Germans, I don't understand that result after my one playing.

I did try to defend the up front buildings as Dave Ginnard suggests. My defense was mediocre and Enrico's attack was very good (despite Xing out the Badger on second shot).

Will try this again.

Rich

 

[ecz]

The DRM to the ESB DR is the Nationality DRM - which in this case is zero, since it is an American vehicle. The only other DRM is the number of extra MP one wants to gain, which is limited to 25% (FRD) fo the printed MP allotment.

A Ram Kangaroo has a printed MP of 14, so the maximum extra MP it can get is 14 * 0.25 = 3.5 FRD to 3. So the ESB DRM will be +3.


D2.5:
"...The maximum MP gain is limited to one-fourth (FRD) of the vehicle’s printed MP allotment...."

yes thanks, now I remember the rule...
I think that a couple of attempts in turn 3 and 4 could make the job done most times. Very poor move should be avoided via agreement or official fix/change.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

yes thanks, now I remember the rule...
I think that a couple of attempts in turn 3 and 4 could make the job done most times. Very poor move should be avoided via agreement or official fix/change.

Can't do it on Turn 4 as they are Recalled on Turn 4.

...Otherwise, if my opponent prefers to play using all the rules to take an advantage from an obvious design mistake, I will happily change scenario or opponent.

You sort of make it sound like this ESB/Immbilization ploy is a sure thing to win this scenario - otherwise I think calling it an "obvious design mistake" is a bit harsh, ymmv.

 

[davegin]

I am, as most times, with you on this one Klaus. This "sleaze" seems a bit inconsequential in this particular scenario. Me thinks if one would spend more time on strategy and tactics, than trying to point out "sleazes", one would enjoy the game much more.

 

[ecz]

Can't do it on Turn 4 as they are Recalled on Turn 4.



You sort of make it sound like this ESB/Immbilization ploy is a sure thing to win this scenario - otherwise I think calling it an "obvious design mistake" is a bit harsh, ymmv.

uhm, no. I was speaking in general answering to the other guy, also speaking in general, about the superiority of skill, quality and competence over the "sleaze ability".

 

[ecz]

(...) Me thinks if one would spend more time on strategy and tactics, than trying to point out "sleazes", one would enjoy the game much more.

Again these are wise words nobody can contest.

but it is a fact that playesters/producers should avoid that a design or SSR encourages the players to spend (or waste) time to speculate about possible sleaze moves. The standard SSR prohibiting kindle has been introduced exactly to avoid this, just to name the most common example.

And even if a possible sleaze can only give a very limited or theoric advantage never causing a sure win, IMO this is not a good reason to ignore the problem in the playtest stage (assuming someone notices it) or thereafter when is revelead.

 

[davegin]

I may be wrong in assuming this, but, I believe in this particular thread on Bedbug Bite, it was only you who brought up this possible "sleaze". Do you always look for the glitches in a scenario? I prefer to look at the overall enjoyment and balance. Maybe spend less time looking for, in this case, a non issue, and more time in developing a defensive or offensive strategy.

 

[Private Smith]

Greetings from Down-under,

Played this last night and it was a very close call, in fact the result will depend on the answer to this question:-

Is turn 7 considered a "Game Turn" for accruing points for occupying the stone buildings on board 67? This came up after consulting the definition of a "game turn" as "two Player Turns each consisting...."

If turn 7 is a "Game Turn", I win as the Canadians.

Mark

 

[davegin]

I would consider turn 7 to be a "game" turn, so you would get the points. Pete, as the designer, would have the final say, however, I would take it that if it is considered a complete game turn as in: there is no second half of the turn and it is "in" the game, then it would count.

 

[wrongway149]

Again these are wise words nobody can contest.

but it is a fact that playesters/producers should avoid that a design or SSR encourages the players to spend (or waste) time to speculate about possible sleaze moves. The standard SSR prohibiting kindle has been introduced exactly to avoid this, just to name the most common example.

And even if a possible sleaze can only give a very limited or theoric advantage never causing a sure win, IMO this is not a good reason to ignore the problem in the playtest stage (assuming someone notices it) or thereafter when is revelead.

It is the job of playtesters to not only discover such 'sleaze', but to determine if it is in fact a game-breaker-- or just another trade-off in a game full of trade-offs.

As a designer, I try to leave as much up to the players as possible. I rarely even remember to say 'Kindling is NA". (Editors usually catch it.)

I prefer SSRs that allow a player to do something extra (which is my 'subtle hint' :hush as opposed to those that take away some choices.

 

[wrongway149]

I would consider turn 7 to be a "game" turn, so you would get the points. Pete, as the designer, would have the final say, however, I would take it that if it is considered a complete game turn as in: there is no second half of the turn and it is "in" the game, then it would count.

Agreed on everything here except the part about me having final say. I have never heard it suggested that a final half-turn is not a 'game turn'. But it could be that no ever thought to ask until now.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

uhm, no. I was speaking in general answering to the other guy, also speaking in general....

Fair enough. I missunderstood your post.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If turn 7 is a "Game Turn", I win as the Canadians.

It is, see rule A3.9:

"...If a Turn box is halved diagonally and printed in red it indicates that only the first side to move has a Player Turn during that Game Turn...."

 

[Private Smith]

Thanks for clearing that up. I will now go back to my opponent with the bad news!

 

[wrongway149]

Will try this again.

Rich

All a designer ever really wants to hear any more.:laugh:

 

[nebel]

Enter woods/building with your last MP. Assuming you don't fall into a building cellar you have a very high chance to immobilize .

If I hadn't deleted my account - I would interject the sleaze bashing here to say that Rams aren't going to be entering any buildings in this scenario as they are open topped.

 

[clubby]

I played this scenario today at our Saturday game day. I agree that the key is holding the forward three buildings. I laid out three 8fp AP mines in the wooden buildings in front of the village and dared my opponent to come in the front. I kept the majority of my forces concealed for nearly half the game. I also left his right side open and allowed him to run up the side. He got troops back past the road and captured the big building on board 67, but that's only 8 VP. By the time he realized he was going to have to capture those stone buildings for a minimum of 2+ turns, it was too late. With all the AP mines and FP in the front, he choose to try to come around from his right flank and the rear. He just ran out of time.