J15 Debrief question re A10.711

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Michael R

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I can't figure out the impact of the 10.711 change. The Debrief states: line 2, after "stacked with" add "(see 4.12)".
A4.12 talks about the 2MF bonus for a MMC stacked with a leader.

Your thoughts?
 

johnl

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I think it's referring to the definition of "stacked with"...
A4.12 ...stacked with a leader of the same nationality in the same Location, at the same level (2.8), and with the same Wire/entrenchment/panji/paddy status...
 

Bill Kohler

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My thoughts are that I wish MMP would include in the Journal a sentence or two with many of the errata to tell us in plain English why the change is being made.

In the latest Journal it said to delete "into another hex" in A10.51. I wish the Journal would've said something like, "This change permits a routing unit to enter a hex that is ADJACENT to a KEU's hex, just so long as the routing unit--when in its new hex--is out of the LOS of that KEU (such as when the KEU is in bypass on the far side of a building)."

Ink is cheap.
 

Michael R

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I think it's referring to the definition of "stacked with"...
A4.12 ...stacked with a leader of the same nationality in the same Location, at the same level (2.8), and with the same Wire/entrenchment/panji/paddy status...
You are a more perceptive that I. Thank you. All I got from a quick read of A4.12 was Movement Bonus.
 

Bill Kohler

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It is but there is no telling how much that would have affected the layout of the magazine. -- jim
I can't see how it'd be any extra effort just so long as they intended to include the explanations right from the start. E.g. . . .

"Okay, we're laying out Journal 18: how many pages does everybody need? Advertising/Promos?"
"4"
"Article #1?"
"5 and a 1/3"
. . .
"Debriefing?"
"1 . . . no, make that 1.5"
. . .
"Okay, that's 30.5 pages. Layout: we need 1.5 pages worth of 'Tips from the Trenches' bubble heads, Sentence Callouts, whitespace, and larger images."

Note: I'm not a magazine editor/publisher. I'm just guessing as to what the process is: but it might be something like the above . . . although perhaps more interative. And I'm guessing that errata has a high enough priority to get whatever space it needs.
 
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Sparafucil3

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I can't see how it'd be any extra effort just so long as they intended to include the explanations right from the start. E.g. . . .

"Okay, we're laying out Journal 18: how many pages does everybody need? Advertising/Promos?"
"4"
"Article #1?"
"5 and a 1/3"
. . .
"Debriefing?"
"1 . . . no, make that 1.5"
. . .
"Okay, that's 30.5 pages. Layout: we need 1.5 pages worth of 'Tips from the Trenches' bubble heads, Sentence Callouts, whitespace, and larger images."

Note: I'm not a magazine editor/publisher. I'm just guessing as to what the process is: but it might be something like the above . . . although perhaps more interative. And I'm guessing that errata has a high enough priority to get whatever space it needs.
I have never published my own magazine but I have worked with many who have. There is only so much room. Sometimes, adding a small amount of text pushes you over onto a new leaf (I think that's the term). When stapled into the middle, a page is actually 4 printed pages in the magazine. Now you have a small sentence at the top of the page and have 3 more pages to fill. Sometimes you cut down so you don't have all that empty space. Sometimes you look for more articles because you have cut everything down as far as you can and you still have a page to fill. Layout isn't a fun thing and I don't envy anyone who does it. -- jim
 

BattleSchool

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I have never published my own magazine but I have worked with many who have. There is only so much room. Sometimes, adding a small amount of text pushes you over onto a new leaf (I think that's the term). When stapled into the middle, a page is actually 4 printed pages in the magazine. Now you have a small sentence at the top of the page and have 3 more pages to fill. Sometimes you cut down so you don't have all that empty space. Sometimes you look for more articles because you have cut everything down as far as you can and you still have a page to fill. Layout isn't a fun thing and I don't envy anyone who does it. -- jim
Bill's suggestion that (future) errata include an explanation for the change is a brilliant proposal. Had this been done from the start, we would be able to refer back to changes across the rules as a whole, without having to speculate on the rationale(s) for any one amendment. The value of being able to track changes over time cannot be overstated.

Speaking of tracking, its typographical namesake is but one of several* ways to deal with widow and orphan text. Any page-layout program worthy of the name allows for tracking, the fine adjustment of space between characters. Even a small adjustment of 5 thousands of an em can be sufficient to tighten a body text enough to resolve a "spillover" of text. (An em is equivalent to the height of a type size. For example, imagine if you can how tiny 5 thousands of 10-point type would be.) This has been my goto before having to resort to rewording.

*One can also address space constraints through the use of hyphenation. That said, I'd never want to see hyphenation used in conjunction with errata, which should always be presented in a clear a manner as possible.
 

Sparafucil3

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Bill's suggestion that (future) errata include an explanation for the change is a brilliant proposal. Had this been done from the start, we would be able to refer back to changes across the rules as a whole, without having to speculate on the rationale(s) for any one amendment. The value of being able to track changes over time cannot be overstated.
I agree there is a better way. I actually think Q&A should be done through a forum such as this one. An open period where Questions could be asked. If people are able to answer it, the question is closed. If not, people can "upvote" for a Perry's consideration. This would allow an open input period where many views could be solicited. The thread would be close, the cabal would render it's judgement and reasoning (if necessary). Now you not only have the reasoning, but you also have the context in which the question was asked. Maybe the question you ask next isn't quite explained by the question you just asked.

This could have two benefits: the misunderstandings are handled by the community. The cabal doesn't have to sort through things that are already answered in the rules. For those things less clear, everyone would have chance to explain their reasoning and the rules basis for their position. This would mean fewer things "missed". It would make the Q&A process as little more "bazar" and a little less "cathedral".

I can dream too. -- jim
 

BattleSchool

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I agree there is a better way. I actually think Q&A should be done through a forum such as this one. An open period where Questions could be asked. If people are able to answer it, the question is closed. If not, people can "upvote" for a Perry's consideration. This would allow an open input period where many views could be solicited. The thread would be close, the cabal would render it's judgement and reasoning (if necessary). Now you not only have the reasoning, but you also have the context in which the question was asked. Maybe the question you ask next isn't quite explained by the question you just asked.

This could have two benefits: the misunderstandings are handled by the community. The cabal doesn't have to sort through things that are already answered in the rules. For those things less clear, everyone would have chance to explain their reasoning and the rules basis for their position. This would mean fewer things "missed". It would make the Q&A process as little more "bazar" and a little less "cathedral".

I can dream too. -- jim
As long there's a record why things were changed, when, and by whom. I'd welcome broader input.
 

klasmalmstrom

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For those interested, I located all the Q&A that led to the Journal 15 errata:

A9.22: line 5, after “counter” add “or is restricted by its terrain to using Area Fire (7.23)”.

A10.51: line 7, delete “into another hex”. Line 30, in the EXC after “RtPh” add “(or when a new destination is re-figured)”.

A10.711: line 2, after “stacked with” add “(see 4.12)”.

B20.41: line 2, after “for all purposes” add “[EXC: 33.]”.

B24.74: in the third sentence, after “hexsides” add “(to include any existing partial TB placed upon entry)”.

D16.23: line 1, after “waterline” add “(i.e., land)”.

E1.52: line 1, after “vehicles” add “using land movement rate”.
 

Bill Kohler

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Excellent!

And BTW this helpful information doesn't need to be published in the Journal itself: a .pdf on MMP's website detailing things like this for each Journal's Debriefing section would IMO work just as well.
 

Sparafucil3

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Excellent!

And BTW this helpful information doesn't need to be published in the Journal itself: a .pdf on MMP's website detailing things like this for each Journal's Debriefing section would IMO work just as well.
If the search function worked, you could probably find this all yourself. -- jim
 

Bill Kohler

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If the search function worked, you could probably find this all yourself. -- jim
Even with a better search ability on GS, it wouldn't be good enough IMO. Forcing everyone who has a question about a specific piece of errata to re-do the same work isn't kind--coming up with the right search phrases, scrolling through countless hits that may or may not address my specific question, then if I find the right thread requiring me to parse through many posts and posts, following all of the twists and turns properly--been there, done that--blek! And remember that ASL Q&A appear on GS, and BGG, and FB, and Discord, and CSW, and are independent Q&A sent directly to MMP, and on YouTube Channels, and Twitter/X, and Posts on personal websites, and who knows how many other possible Internet forums.

If print ink is cheap, screen ink is even cheaper.
 
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Sparafucil3

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Even with a good search ability, it wouldn't be good enough IMO. Forcing everyone who wants that information to re-do the same work isn't kind, especially requiring them to parse through many posts and posts, following all of the twists and turns properly, and even then players would be guessing as to which threads are related to the reason behind each errata. And consider that ASL Q&A are on GS, BGG, FB, Discord, CSW, independent Q&A sent directly to MMP, YouTube Channels, Twitter/X, Posts on personal websites, and who knows how many other Internet forums.

If print ink is cheap, screen ink is even cheaper.
A) Have looked at the name of the link where Klas provides his Q&A? If not, I recommend you do. It cuts at the argument that Q&A are all over. They are only here or they don't make the Q&A.

B) If you want the discussion, the only place it happens is on all of those different places. No one (other than maybe me and I don't want that role anymore) spends a lot of time discussing Q&A and why it came about.

And yes, screen ink is even cheaper, but the time of people to sum it all up and put it into nice, palatable chunks isn't. In the end, it is best for people to go through the arguments anyway. That way people can see what was discussed and considered. This heads off "yeah but did you consider" type questions which come up repeatedly. I don't think of this as "unkind", I think of it as teaching a man to fish, fed tonight v fed for the rest of your life. -- jim
 

Bill Kohler

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A) Have looked at the name of the link where Klas provides his Q&A? If not, I recommend you do. It cuts at the argument that Q&A are all over. They are only here or they don't make the Q&A.
His lists, however helpful they are--and they are tremendously helpful!--are for only those Q&A that have received an "official" answer from MMP, and that is a very, very small chunk of the questions that're asked about ASL. And I equally value his energetic work answering all of our other lost-in-minutia questions here on GS, his efforts and everyone else's, including Scott's and yours too Jim!

ASL is hard to learn, very hard: let's not go out of our way to make it harder. Those who make official decisions on the errata know the reasons for why each piece of errata is accepted: in fact those reasons are probably already documented in the private email they send back and forth while discussing it.

When I read "delete 'into another hex' from A10.51" in the latest Journal, I had no idea what the import of that change was. The ASLRB is obscure enough as is: subtleties like these added on top of subtleties and tortured locutions make my head swim. Must that be a necessary part of playing ASL? Why not make it easier for people, not harder? Frankly, I'd rather spend my time playing ASL than figuring out how to play ASL.
 
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Sparafucil3

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His lists, however helpful they are--and they are tremendously helpful!--are for only those Q&A that have received an "official" answer from MMP, and that is a very, very small chunk of the questions that're asked about ASL. And I equally value his energetic work answering all of our lost-in-minutia questions, his and everyone else's, including Scott's and yours too Jim!
And don't think there is an instance of any errata that is not first included in his collection. If not all, then nearly all start out as Q&A.

ASL is hard to learn, very hard: let's not go out of our way to make it harder. Those who make official decisions on the errata know the reasons for why each piece of errata is accepted: in fact those reasons are probably already documented in the private email they send back and forth while discussing it.
Sure, but the idea that "ink is cheap" distracts from the truth that time isn't. I have been on a very few number of those emails. I don't think anyone wants to sum up the discussion that took place there. In the end, the final decision is Perry's no matter the input. And yes, I am not part of that group but I know a couple who are. They will ALWAYS back Perry's call, even if they disagreed internally. So what you're asking for is for Perry to author an article on why he believe the changes need to be made. Maybe Perry would do that and maybe he wouldn't. There was a whole article on the new WA rules in one of the Journals. After I read it, I have more questions than before. Articles and explanations aren't a panacea. Explanations inevitably lead to more questions.

When I read "delete 'into another hex' from A10.51" in the latest Journal, I had no idea what the import of that change was. The ASLRB is obscure enough as is: subtleties like these added on top of subtleties and tortured locutions make my head swim. Must that be a necessary part of playing ASL? Why not make it easier for people, not harder?
Some find it easy. Some find it hard. Almost EVERYONE who has some understanding of the game will tell you that learning WITH someone--preferably someone who already has some grasp on the rules--is far easier than going it alone. If it were up to me, I would re-write the ASLRB in ACTIVE voice. So much of it PASSIVE voice it's hard to parse. In many of my articles you will find small passages of the ASLRB quoted followed by a paragraph or two turning them into ACTIVE voice for clarity. But that's my pipe dream. -- jim
 

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So what you're asking for is for Perry to author an article on why he believe the changes need to be made.
No, that's not what I'm asking for. I would like a single sentence for the more cryptic errata to explain what the change is meant to do, like the example I gave above:
  • delete "into another hex" in A10.51
  • This change permits a routing unit to enter a hex that is ADJACENT to a KEU's hex, just so long as the routing unit itself--when in its new hex--is out of the LOS of that KEU (such as when the KEU is in bypass on the far side of a building).
 
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Sparafucil3

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No, that's not what I'm asking for. I would just like a single sentence on some of the more cryptic errata to simply explain what the change is meant to accomplish, like the example I gave above:
  • delete "into another hex" in A10.51
  • This change permits a routing unit to enter a hex that is ADJACENT to a KEU's hex, just so long as the routing unit itself--when in its new hex--is out of the LOS of that KEU (such as when the KEU is in bypass on the far side of a building).
OK, I got the length of explanation wrong. It would still be on Perry to do it. The shortness of which would only increase the likelihood of subsequent questions. If it were a single sentence, covering each Errata, it would all add up. I defer to Perry. It's his time, not mine. -- jim
 
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