ITT Crit Exactly on

[MatrimSaric]

Doing a blog post on ITT critical hits and wanted to check a specific case..

A tank shooting ITT type stops and takes a bounding fire shot at a squad in a wood at 4 hexes distance. Modified TH is 8 TEMs +1 wood TEM +1 buttoned up +2 C (ST) +2 B

Tank rolls original die roll of snake eyes so final DR is 8 so the only number possible to make a hit

C3.7 says the crit is <half the modified or on a TH of 2 followed by a subsequent dr of 1 or <= half of the modified.

What I want to ask is whether this counts as a crit (in which case the ' 1 or' relates to perhaps a gun of 54mm shooting at 49 hexes which would be a modified to hit of 1 and half that would be 0.5)

The italiced sentence immediately preceding the ITT section (though tied to 5.72 and even if not relates to Vehicle hits) is making me doubt myself though...

If anyone wants to volunteer to error check the blog post before it goes out then I would also happily accept...

 

[turlusiflu]

In this case the Final DR (8) is not < half the Modified TH# (8), so you have to roll 1 die. If you roll <=4 (half the Modified TH#, 8), then you get the CH

 

[Mister T]

In this case the Final DR (8) is not < half the Modified TH# (8), so you have to roll 1 die. If you roll <=4 (half the Modified TH#, 8), then you get the CH

Not in that case.

C3.7 (...) EXC: If only the lowest final TH DR possible for that shot would achieve a hit, a CH occurs only on a subsequent dr of 1 following that hit; a 2-6 results in a normal hull hit (or a normal turret hit vs. a HD vehicle)

 

[turlusiflu]

Not in that case.

C3.7 (...) EXC: If only the lowest final TH DR possible for that shot would achieve a hit, a CH occurs only on a subsequent dr of 1 following that hit; a 2-6 results in a normal hull hit (or a normal turret hit vs. a HD vehicle)

But this Exception refers to ATT/VTT, and HE FFE

 

[Philippe D.]

I think the relevant rule is C3.6 Improbable Hits. If a 2 DR would normally result in a miss, an Original 2 DR needs a subsequent dr: 1 means CH, 2-3 is a regular hit, 4-6 is a miss. C3.6 doesn't care about the target type.

 

[turlusiflu]

I think the relevant rule is C3.6 Improbable Hits. If a 2 DR would normally result in a miss, an Original 2 DR needs a subsequent dr: 1 means CH, 2-3 is a regular hit, 4-6 is a miss. C3.6 doesn't care about the target type.

Right, but in this case the DR of 2 is enough to achieve a hit, so C3.6 doesn't apply here

 

[MatrimSaric]

Yeah 3.6 would not apply to this hit. (unless we add a tohit addition, say wood building and not wood), then

initial tohit 8
modifiedtohit 8
DRMS +7
original DR 2
Final DR 9 (2+7) (so miss) now C3.6 would apply.

 

[turlusiflu]

That's right. Just an appreciation. +7 are DRMs, not TH modifiers

 

[MatrimSaric]

cheers, changed it..

 

[von Marwitz]

Doing a blog post on ITT critical hits and wanted to check a specific case..

A tank shooting ITT type stops and takes a bounding fire shot at a squad in a wood at 4 hexes distance. Modified TH is 8 TEMs +1 wood TEM +1 buttoned up +2 C (ST) +2 B

Tank rolls original die roll of snake eyes so final DR is 8 so the only number possible to make a hit

C3.7 says the crit is <half the modified or on a TH of 2 followed by a subsequent dr of 1 or <= half of the modified.

What I want to ask is whether this counts as a crit (in which case the ' 1 or' relates to perhaps a gun of 54mm shooting at 49 hexes which would be a modified to hit of 1 and half that would be 0.5)

The italiced sentence immediately preceding the ITT section (though tied to 5.72 and even if not relates to Vehicle hits) is making me doubt myself though...

If anyone wants to volunteer to error check the blog post before it goes out then I would also happily accept...

The rule says:

C3.7:
...
A CH also occurs while using the Infantry Target Type whenever the Final TH DR is < half the Modified TH# (3.3), or on an Original TH DR of 2 followed by a subsequent dr of 1 or ≤ half of the Modified TH#.
...

So you are looking at this:

You are using the ITT.
Your original DR was 2 (Snakes).

The point where many people get confused is what the Modified TH# is (C3.3).
To get the Modified TH#, you take the basic TH# (in your case 8 for ITT vs. Infantry at range 0-6 hexes) and only the Gun&Ammo Basic TH# Modifications (i.e. Barrel Length *, L, LL; Ammo Type APDS/APCR, Smoke; and Caliber less or equal to 40mm, less or equal to 57mm). You did not specify Barrel Length, Ammo Type or Caliber in your question, but at range 4, there will be no modifier unless you were firing Smoke.

Consequently, there are no Basic TH# Modifiers and your Modified TH# per C3.3 is 8.

The first way to get a CH is if your Final TH# had been 2,1 or 1,2 (i.e. less than half of the Modified TH# of 8 in your case) with no need of a subsequent DR. However, you had plenty of modfiers to your Final TH# (while you had no modifiers to your Modified TH#), namely TEM, BU, Case B & C. Due to the these Modifiers, your Final TH# of 8 is not less than half the Modified TH# and thus you do not get a CH by this way.

The second way to get a CH on the ITT is rolling an original DR of 2. This you did. In this case, you need to make a subsequent dr. If this dr is either 1 or 'less or equal' than half of your Modified TH#, you get the CH. Your Modified TH# of your shot had been 8, so less or equal than half of it is 4 or less for your subsequent dr. This means after your original DR of 2 on the ITT, you get the CH on a subsequent dr of 1-4.

The important thing here is to avoid confusion about the Modified TH# and the Final TH#.
Both your Modified TH# and Final TH# happen to be 8, which creates part of the confusion.
But while the Final TH# modifiers matter for the first way to get a CH (which you don't for that reason), the Final TH# modifiers do not matter for the second way to get a CH (and that's why you get it this way in your case).

von Marwitz

 

[von Marwitz]

Right, but in this case the DR of 2 is enough to achieve a hit, so C3.6 doesn't apply here

C3.6 does not apply, still you need a subsequent dr which needs to be either 1 or 'less or equal' than half the Modified TH# to get a CH.

von Marwitz

 

[MatrimSaric]

Thanks. I thought it was that way (after a long fb discussion had occurred) but the italiced sentence worried me slightly (even though it obviously relates to vehicle hits..)

 

[turlusiflu]

The rule says:

C3.7:
...
A CH also occurs while using the Infantry Target Type whenever the Final TH DR is < half the Modified TH# (3.3), or on an Original TH DR of 2 followed by a subsequent dr of 1 or ≤ half of the Modified TH#.
...

So you are looking at this:

You are using the ITT.
Your original DR was 2 (Snakes).

The point where many people get confused is what the Modified TH# is (C3.3).
To get the Modified TH#, you take the basic TH# (in your case 8 for ITT vs. Infantry at range 0-6 hexes) and only the Gun&Ammo Basic TH# Modifications (i.e. Barrel Length *, L, LL; Ammo Type APDS/APCR, Smoke; and Caliber less or equal to 40mm, less or equal to 57mm). You did not specify Barrel Length, Ammo Type or Caliber in your question, but at range 4, there will be no modifier unless you were firing Smoke.

Consequently, there are no Basic TH# Modifiers and your Modified TH# per C3.3 is 8.

The first way to get a CH is if your Final TH# had been 2,1 or 1,2 (i.e. less than half of the Modified TH# of 8 in your case) with no need of a subsequent DR. However, you had plenty of modfiers to your Final TH# (while you had no modifiers to your Modified TH#), namely TEM, BU, Case B & C. Due to the these Modifiers, your Final TH# of 8 is not less than half the Modified TH# and thus you do not get a CH by this way.

The second way to get a CH on the ITT is rolling an original DR of 2. This you did. In this case, you need to make a subsequent dr. If this dr is either 1 or less than half of your Modified TH#, you get the CH. Your Modified TH# of your shot had been 8, so less than half of it is 3 or less for your subsequent dr. This means after your original DR of 2 on the ITT, you get the CH on a subsequent dr of 1-3.

The important thing here is to avoid confusion about the Modified TH# and the Final TH#.
Both your Modified TH# and Final TH# happen to be 8, which creates part of the confusion.
But while the Final TH# modifiers matter for the first way to get a CH (which you don't for that reason), the Final TH# modifiers do not matter for the second way to get a CH (and that's why you get it this way in your case).

von Marwitz

Good explanation. Just one correction, the dr has to be less than or equal to the Modified TH#

 

[von Marwitz]

Good explanation. Just one correction, the dr has to be less than or equal to the Modified TH#

Good spot! In the case discussed, this will raise the chances of a CH by 16.7% from 50% to 66.7%.
I edited my posts accordingly.

von Marwitz