ITR 6 The Ceramic Factory Qs

[bprobst]

Q 1. The German OOB displays 5-4-8 and 4-4-7 SS counters, but only makes passing reference to ABTF in one of the SSRs. Just to be certain: is it the intent that the 5-48 and 4-4-7 counters be "SS", with the usual effects (increased broken morale, etc.)?

The reason this needs to be clarified (and many 3rd-party scenario designers forget this) is that the 5-4-8 and 4-4-7 SS counters do not exist in the general ASL core system, and there are no rules for them. The counters and rules for them only come with ABTF. The core rules recognise the existence of only 3 types of SS squad: 4-6-8, 6-5-8, and 8-3-8. For anything else, you need an SSR (even if the SSR is only "see ABTF R6.0" or something similar).

Q 2. Not so much a scenario question as a general question about the BFP R-C overlay. Hexes P1 & T1 contain combined building and roads. The roads are clearly not "narrow streets" and don't seem to be covered by ITR HBR 10 (although that would seem to be the logical place to put such a rule). The only core rule that discusses combined building & road hexes is the Marketplace (B23.73) which hardly seems likely here. If the intent is to use the building-road rule from PB (Q5.5) -- which seems logical -- this should be stated explicitly somewhere.

 

[Whizbang1963]

Bruce..great questions...working on getting you answers...

 

[Chas]

Bruce,

The counters themselves are SS, so yes, they are SS.

We will add the RC overlay P1 and T1 questions to the Q and A. I want to review it to ensure the answer is adequate.

Thanks,
Chas

 

[bprobst]

The counters themselves are SS, so yes, they are SS.

I think that whooshing noise you hear is my point sailing over your head. The scenario needs an SSR to say that they are SS, because there is no rule that says it. An SS-runes symbol is not a substitute.

We will add the RC overlay P1 and T1 questions to the Q and A. I want to review it to ensure the answer is adequate.

I hope it will be adequate also.

I must admit to some astonishment that no-one has ever asked the question before now.

 

[Fred Ingram]

I think that whooshing noise you hear is my point sailing over your head. The scenario needs an SSR to say that they are SS, because there is no rule that says it. An SS-runes symbol is not a substitute.

I must admit to some astonishment that no-one has ever asked the question before now.

Well - My opinion is that it was completely obvious (your mileage obviously varies)

 

[bprobst]

Well - My opinion is that it was completely obvious (your mileage obviously varies)

And if we all rely on the "completely obvious" you have scenarios with undefined definitions and vague or non-existent rules. That's why scenarios should be proof-read by people independent of those who produced it; the ideal proof-reader will never have played the scenario he is proofing. In any case, I prefer to rely on rules text rather than someone else's idea of what is or is not "completely obvious".

It's a very straight-forward line of rules thought Fred: there is no core-rule that says "any MMC with a SS-rune gets all the SS characteristics". The core rules don't discuss the 5-4-8 SS or (god help us) the 4-4-7 SS (possibly the most ridiculous concept for a MMC that you could imagine). If the core rules don't say they have SS characteristics, and there's no SSR that says they have SS characteristics, then they don't have SS characteristics, and it doesn't matter a fig what the counter looks like.

Do I think that this is a critical, game-stopping error in this scenario? Heavens no, reasonable players will come to an agreement easily enough, and I think most of us are very reasonable. The issue is that the scenario designer/publisher should not require that reasonable players come to any agreement other than "let's play this thing". If you pay attention to the details then we all travel on a smoother path.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

(god help us) the 4-4-7 SS (possibly the most ridiculous concept for a MMC that you could imagine)

There were many SS formations (indeed, I think, the majority of the numbered divisions) that were little more than armed criminal scum, barely able to defeat partisans or kill civilians. Many divisions were recruited from unmotivated Volksdeutsche (due to the internal German political limitations in conscripting Germans) or the remnants of defeated foes or former German allies. Some foreign volunteers were of good quality but the majority were not. These lower quality SS should have the ability to massacre, be unlikely to surrender to Soviets and rally quicker (they often had German SS officers and higher NCOs) but would be still be very second rate. Their introduction in ABtF used them to represent normal SS worn down by combat does not seem unreasonable.

The choice of using 468/658/548/447 from the start of a scenario should reflect the year, equipment level, training and motivation of the troops involved. Late war SS had a much, much greater variation in quality than the the early war SS due to the widespread recruitment of SS from outside Germany. Even the still "German" SS divisions were filled out by personnel unwillingly transferred from the Navy and Airforce made redundant by the war situation. By '44 any ideas of "racially pure" SS had long gone out of the window, replaced by Himmler's ideas of internal empire building where he grabbed any thing breathing that the Army did not have control of.

I agree with the strict rule interpretation regarding 548 SS, though until you brought it up, it did not even occur to me that there might be a problem, other than counter availability (not every player has ABtF).

 

[Fred Ingram]

It's a very straight-forward line of rules thought Fred: there is no core-rule that says "any MMC with a SS-rune gets all the SS characteristics". The core rules don't discuss the 5-4-8 SS or (god help us) the 4-4-7 SS (possibly the most ridiculous concept for a MMC that you could imagine). If the core rules don't say they have SS characteristics, and there's no SSR that says they have SS characteristics, then they don't have SS characteristics, and it doesn't matter a fig what the counter looks like.

Do I think that this is a critical, game-stopping error in this scenario? Heavens no, reasonable players will come to an agreement easily enough, and I think most of us are very reasonable. The issue is that the scenario designer/publisher should not require that reasonable players come to any agreement other than "let's play this thing". If you pay attention to the details then we all travel on a smoother path.

I agree with you totally

Reasonable players will get it right (we both did)

And yes --it technically is an error in the scenario design as written on the card and should be clarified

 

[bprobst]

Paul, you're entitled to your opinion, but the "sure they're second-rate, but they're elite second-rate" argument completely fails to convince me. By all means they should have the massacre and we-don't-surrender-to-Russians-'cos-they'll-murder-us attributes, but the enhanced broken morale and elite status is ridiculous. They should just be plain old 4-4-7s: second-rate troops like every other second-rate troop. (Well, they should probably still have assault fire, too.) If they want elite status, they should get it the same way other squads get it: battle-hardening.

I'll play the "sure they're elite!" rule because that's what the rule says, but IMO it was a mistake on MMP's part to write the rule that way. (I don't have any fundamental objection to the 5-4-8 SS as a squad type, but I don't think that they should have been inserted as a "step" in between the 6-5-8 and the 4-4-7.)

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I tend to agree with you regards the elite status, but have less of a problem with increased broken morale. Think of it as "if we don't get back in the fight, as SS we are doomed". A more ruthless or desperate version of normal 2nd line troops. I see the increased broken morale as an equivalent to real life reluctance to surrender to any enemy because they wear SS insignia.

The 6-5-8<->5-4-8<->4-4-7 only applies in ABtF or by SSR. If SS 5-4-8 or 4-4-7 are listed in a scenario and barring an SSR to the contrary they battle harden to Fanatic, not go up in type and a ERL break means 2 broken half-squads rather than go down in type.

There are a small number of non-ABtF MMP scenarios that use 5-4-8 SS troops, e.g. ASL 120 [ERL:3], J54 [ERL:5]. In some cases they are subject to replacement in other cases not. In the case of ASL 120 they can go down in quality to 4-4-7 but if they battle harden they just become Fanatic not 6-5-8 (I queried this and got a MMP response to that effect). In the case of J54, J144 (and others) they are an alternatively armed SS type (they are also assault engineers). The use of 5-4-8 SS as assault engineer complementing 4-6-8 SS infantry has been used in quite a few MMP early war SS scenarios.

5-4-8 and 4-4-7 SS can represent anything from "armed trash" to good but worn out or underarmed SS. Whether 4-4-7 should always be considered elite is another matter. In any event if you start with 4-4-7 in a scenario their elite status can be SSR'ed out. The only official scenarios that I remember that start with some 4-4-7 are the ABtF and in that case their elite status has some historical justification.

As you pointed out, the 5-4-8 and 4-4-7 are not official and the reduction steps in ABtF apply only in ABtF or in a scenario by SSR specifying the ABtF reduction sequence.

 

[Houlie]

This begs the question of whether GRAY SS 548 and 447s will ever be produced in an upcoming project by MMP or someone else? This is a gap. I mean, why make folks remember the morale is one higher when there are enough scenarios with them that it warrants production of these as official core counters? Those are more core to the system than a bazillion aircraft counters I'll likely not use. JMO.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I have read in multiple posts that the 548 and 447 SS are supposed to be in the Budapest HASL. They indeed have become de facto core.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I have read in multiple posts that the 548 and 447 SS are supposed to be in the Budapest HASL. They indeed have become defacto core.

Er... past tense? And is Budapest going to be more core than ABtF? I'm OK with the wider range of SS, but would like a couple Chapter A paragraphs to delineate them and the counters to be in a non-HASL module. Strictly procedural from my POV, I have ABtF and will buy FB, but it should be done right.

S

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I agree that there should be some Chapter A stuff of the 548 and 447. Nearly every other counter, that I can think of, has ended up in either Chapter A or H (a few BRT extras excepted). I did say de facto, rather than official, core. The defacto but unofficial nature is emphasised by the SSRs giving Heer 548s the same characteristics as SS 548s in MMP scenarios.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I agree that there should be some Chapter A stuff of the 548 and 447. Nearly every other counter, that I can think of, has ended up in either Chapter A or H (a few BRT extras excepted). I did say defacto, rather than official, core. The defacto but unofficial nature is emphasised by the SSRs giving Heer 548s the same characteristics as SS 548s in MMP scenarios.

So you did. I was reading their having become de facto core as a result of their inclusion in FB. I see that wasn't really there in your post. Sorry.

S

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Well, my post was potentially ambiguous. You still have a point though, that MMP should bite the bullet and put them in chapter A. They (or more usually, their SSRed Heer 548 proxies) have been used too often in MMP scenarios to be left in limbo.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Well, my post was potentially ambiguous. You still have a point though, that MMP should bite the bullet and put them in chapter A. They (or more usually, their SSRed Heer 548 proxies) have been used too often in MMP scenarios to be left in limbo.

Yep, we're definitely in agreement on this point. While Fred above is right that common sense makes clear how to handle these guys, that doesn't pass for well-written rules. I think this about railroad type depictions, too. If you squint, you can get it from the sunken/elevated road rules, but it should be clearer in the actual railroad rules section, IMO.

S

 

[bprobst]

Returning to the actual scenario, we have another question: SSR 7 states that Russian 6-2-8s are Assault Engineers. Does this apply only to the 6-2-8s in the at-start OOB, not to a 5-2-7 that Battle Hardens? (We assume "yes".) If a 6-2-8 AE suffers ELR failure, is it still an AE? (We assume "no", but also assume that if it subsequently BH it will become an AE again.)

There's certainly a whole lot going on in this scenario. At the completion of the Russian Turn 1, the German Sniper has been invoked 7 times already (only two actual activations, which resulted in the breaking and subsequent elimination of the Russian ART crew), the Germans have malfed 2 MGs. the Russians have BH a 5-2-7 (and created a Hero), one ISU-152 has found an AT minefield (and survived entering it; hasn't attempted to exit yet), and only a couple of broken Russian units (with just the one squad eliminated). The factories are in our sights, now all we have to do is get rid of those pesky Germans.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Most interesting questions. There are many scenarios where there are similar ambiguities. Up till now I would assume the same as what you did. The only rulebook guidance is that AE must be elite. In VotG when 628 AE ERL fail and BH back they are no longer AE (Vogt 24), but that is VotG and not a core rule.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Returning to the actual scenario, we have another question: SSR 7 states that Russian 6-2-8s are Assault Engineers. Does this apply only to the 6-2-8s in the at-start OOB, not to a 5-2-7 that Battle Hardens? (We assume "yes".) If a 6-2-8 AE suffers ELR failure, is it still an AE? (We assume "no", but also assume that if it subsequently BH it will become an AE again.)

There's certainly a whole lot going on in this scenario. At the completion of the Russian Turn 1, the German Sniper has been invoked 7 times already (only two actual activations, which resulted in the breaking and subsequent elimination of the Russian ART crew), the Germans have malfed 2 MGs. the Russians have BH a 5-2-7 (and created a Hero), one ISU-152 has found an AT minefield (and survived entering it; hasn't attempted to exit yet), and only a couple of broken Russian units (with just the one squad eliminated). The factories are in our sights, now all we have to do is get rid of those pesky Germans.

Sorry about hijack, Bruce.

I would say that if the SSR says "Russian 628s are AEs" with no qualification, that any 628s are. Maybe a 527 upgrades, that's some offset to the possibility that a 628 degrades. And what about a 628 that ELRs to a 527 and then BH's back? Absent a clear reason, I'd read it literally.

S