Italian surrender

fast Heinz

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Here is one you might want to chew on.

Turn 165 stalemate in Med. at Al Alemain, with axis control of Malta. Allies invade and capture Messina. Which gives Rommel his chance, he pounces and takes Alexandria and Cario. Axis retake Messina in two turns. Allies slaughtered.

Italy controls the Med except Gibralter. Allies on the ropes. Italians decide it is a good time to SURRENDER!

Sicily has no strategic value, and actually looked like a good place for the worlds largest pow camp.

Totally unrealistic I'd say.
 

Wolf

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The 50% chance of Italian surrender has caused me a problem as well, in one game, the Germans are running riot but the Italians have thrown in the Towel just because one British Brigade hit Messina, maybe this should be unable to happen pre 1942?
 

Lou

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Possible solutions

The three event solution.

Change Event 105 to 100% OPPORTUNITY
Messina occupation

NEW EVENT Turn 1 Cancel Event 105
This cancels Messina

NEW EVENT Allies Occupy Tripoli
This triggers

NEW EVENT 50% Opportunity To Enable Event 105

Three new events, and avoids using the calendar. Truth be told I do not like calendar triggers.

Tripoli being the Admin Center (check this) for Italy in Africa makes a reasonable trigger. Using Tripoli, instead of 1942, might or might not be more realistic. This is Mark’s decision. Mark may have other plans for those events.

The trigger can still be gamed, but Italy/Axis does have to defend its territory.

--

But if 1942 was used, we have a two event solution.

NEW EVENT Turn 1 Cancel Event 105
This cancels Messina

NEW EVENT Turn (1942) Enable Event 105.

--

This is the single event solution.

NEW EVENT Allies Occupy Tripoli
With news string “Allies may now attack Messinaâ€

This requires support of a house rule. Not the best of solutions.
.
 

Mark Stevens

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I think Lou's suggestion about the fall of Tripoli activating a 50% chance of an Italian surrender if Messina falls is the best solution. That would certainly encourage a more historical approach, with the Aliies having to clean out the administrative centre for the North African colonies before concentrating on Italy proper.

But then players will still be able to say that the Italians hold - for example - Malta, Gibraltar, Tunis, Cairo, Alexandria & etc. but having lost Tripoli and Messina isn't a surrender still unrealistic?

With the scenario in its existing structure, on the other hand, shouldn't a prudent Axis player ensure that Messina is properly garrisoned - it wouldn't take too much - before sending everyone romping over the Middle East?

But I do take the point.

It would be nice to have a certain level of Italian losses gradually increasing the chance of surrender (without the players knowing for sure) but I don't see how it could be done.
 

Kraut

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Mark Stevens said:
With the scenario in its existing structure, on the other hand, shouldn't a prudent Axis player ensure that Messina is properly garrisoned - it wouldn't take too much - before sending everyone romping over the Middle East?
The problem really are all those 'this hex will cause an enemy nation to surrender' hexes, as long as they are easily reached the opposing player will always try to occupy it, if just for 1 turn on a suicide mission, to trigger the surrender. A possible solution: The capture of hex x,y will start an event chain that will be activated xx turns (3-6?) later, unless canceled by a reoccupation.
But I guess there's not enough room in the event list left ^^

So maybe its better to block off Messina + Reggio di Calabria with shallow water, that would at least prevent cheasy suicide seaborn invasion with the soul purpose to trigger the surrender and force the Allies to occupy sicily first to reach Messina. That would give the Axis time to react.

To allow the Axis passage in the Med, open a way at Gela, to replace the now blocked passage at Messina
 
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viridomaros

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may be it sounds like a noob suggestion
but can't the axis put enough troops to defend the key locations to avoid that kind of problems?
 

Dan Neely

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viridomaros said:
may be it sounds like a noob suggestion
but can't the axis put enough troops to defend the key locations to avoid that kind of problems?
*snicker*

Properly garrisoning rear areas interferes with the standard practice of massively frontloading offensive forces to try and out perform history. Whining and compaining it's unfair when the other side gets cute is much easier.
 

Mantis

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Mark Stevens said:
With the scenario in its existing structure, on the other hand, shouldn't a prudent Axis player ensure that Messina is properly garrisoned - it wouldn't take too much - before sending everyone romping over the Middle East?
I wouldn't waste events (cute reply, Dan :laugh: )

It's a *game*. If you say to a player "If the Allies take this spot, Italy might fold", and the guy doesn't garrison the hell out of it; well then, that's a learning experience. I think that comes under the heading of 'Well, that will never happen to me again...'

Here's a shot of a standard defence of Messina in the first half of the war:

 

viridomaros

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Mantis said:
I wouldn't waste events (cute reply, Dan :laugh: )

It's a *game*. If you say to a player "If the Allies take this spot, Italy might fold", and the guy doesn't garrison the hell out of it; well then, that's a learning experience. I think that comes under the heading of 'Well, that will never happen to me again...'

Here's a shot of a standard defence of Messina in the first half of the war:

looks like a good fortress :smoke:
 

Mark Stevens

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Maybe one fleet stationed immediately north and one immediately south of Messina itself? Provided some of the Italian fighters are flying cover - and given the number of airfields there's no excuse for them not to be - the fleets should be safe from Allied bombers and, even if forced to retreat by the Allied navies, they'll have to fall back into Messina harbour where they'll still contribute to the defence. Assuming an Allied seaborne assault in conjunction with a powerful fleet, the time taken to force the Italian navy back into harbour may take up the turn and prevent the seaborne assault going in. This would leave the Allied fleet and embarked troops outside the harbour - exposed to an Axis bombing/naval attack in their turn, or at least revealing the Allies' intentions and allowing reinforcements to be shipped in from the open side, or marched in from Sicily itself.
 

viridomaros

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Mark Stevens said:
Maybe one fleet stationed immediately north and one immediately south of Messina itself? Provided some of the Italian fighters are flying cover - and given the number of airfields there's no excuse for them not to be - the fleets should be safe from Allied bombers and, even if forced to retreat by the Allied navies, they'll have to fall back into Messina harbour where they'll still contribute to the defence. Assuming an Allied seaborne assault in conjunction with a powerful fleet, the time taken to force the Italian navy back into harbour may take up the turn and prevent the seaborne assault going in. This would leave the Allied fleet and embarked troops outside the harbour - exposed to an Axis bombing/naval attack in their turn, or at least revealing the Allies' intentions and allowing reinforcements to be shipped in from the open side, or marched in from Sicily itself.
you want to leave your navy at sea? :eek:
with such a fortress i doubt someone would dare to attack and even if he does it's dubious it will work
 

an_an

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I was just up against a similar defensive force composition as Mantis has shown. I sent forces with an attack strength of around 18, coupled with a large naval force, and took Messina with moderate losses. Though I am the Allies and relish the opportunity to save my front in Southern France from collapse by the Italian army, I do find it a bit unfair that such a 'suicide' mission as this could cause the collapse of an otherwise robust Italy.
My question-- how many turns does it take to find if the 50% variable of collapse has succeeded? Also, I first took the fortress, and then the Axis retook it one turn later. During my next turn I retook it again. Since there is a lag between the capture and the potential surrender, does this mean that I now have *two* 50% chances for the Italian collapse? If this needs to be in a new thread i'll be glad to post it-- but this thread seemed to be pointing directly towards my ideas... Thanks for any help...
By the way, given the limitations in the game engine, I think that the idea of first having to take Tripoli in order to activate Italy's potential collapse from the capture of Messina is, at this point, the best alternative to what is already in place.
 

Siberian HEAT

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an_an said:
By the way, given the limitations in the game engine, I think that the idea of first having to take Tripoli in order to activate Italy's potential collapse from the capture of Messina is, at this point, the best alternative to what is already in place.
If nothing else, an Allied player who goes all out for Tripoli without clearing all of Africa will tip off his Axis opponent that Messina is next.
 

Mantis

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Don't forget the possibility (a likely one) that you hit that prepared defence shown above, and are repulsed. Then you have a corps plus a souple supporting units sitting in transports during the Axis turn, potentially with a large navy that got stuck at sea by an early turn ending. For the British, constantly short of manpower, this can be a total disaster.
 
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