Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis) [COMPLETE]

stiener

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I'll lay it out.
Termoli needs to be garrisoned on turn 1 to prevent the masterful capture of that city that I pulled off on the first turn.

Above Salerno/Termoli there are only two major Ports that do not already have a garrison division; Venice and Ancona. All a German player has to do is grab 2-4 rgts (one division) to garrison those two locales, and his rear is more or less secure, certainly secure from commandoes. With the forces avail from turn 1, a German player could secure his whole rear area and still have 5 divisions in the south.

The reason I had Silvain jumping through hoops is because of my luck and skill inthe south, not because I landed hordes of troops in the north. Had Silvain dropped a rgt. in Ancona, I never would have been able to land there, and he'd be much better off.
yes i see what your saying now....i hadnt done all my homework on the major ports or german troop distribution. :OHNO: so your right, it is easily possible for the german to secure his major ports after the 1st turn.

Ok, I'm willing to listen. What would you suggest that the airborne abilities of the Allies be?
well........i looked at the allied reinforcement schedule, and i see that the BR airboune withdraws on turn 24. for the life of me i couldnt find the US 82 airbourne being withdrawn anytime in the re and re schedule? :crosseye:
i would guess that they should be withdrawn around the same time as the BR para's? we know they have to be withdrawn for market garden and D day, so im at bit of a loss here.

im still of the opinion that the para's are fragile. the fact that a majority of the terrain in italy is mountainous will usually cause the paras to scattter and/or reoganize.........at least break down in to companys which makes them in my opinion easy prey for the german if he concentrates on eliminating them. they then lose there airboune capability and become inf after that point.[ game rule ]
the amount of airlift points alloted doesnt allow you to drop both the BR and US paras at the same time either i believe. doesnt even allow you to drop all the US paras at once i believe.
if the paras are around for.. say 24 turns i would say it wouldnt be unreasonable to be able to drop them 3 or 4 times?? possibly with a rule that you wait a 2 week/2 move interval between drops so the logistics of it all can be set up again at the airbases etc.

remember that were all trying to change history within the confines of what is reasonable and " what if " ...altho i think you know that and thats why your trying to improve the game. :D
you know :devious:......the germans in this game have the capability of dropping there paras also! :halo: maybe Hitler will change his mind? of course air superiority may be a problem in that regard too! :laugh:

your thoughts......

on another note......i believe the BR para's were dropped in sicily and fought the german paras on the coast, in the drive for the straights. red devils vs green devils! i dont think the US para's were dropped on sicily???
 

Veers

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yes i see what your saying now....i hadnt done all my homework on the major ports or german troop distribution. :OHNO: so your right, it is easily possible for the german to secure his major ports after the 1st turn.
No worries, my friend. We all make mistakes.


well........i looked at the allied reinforcement schedule, and i see that the BR airboune withdraws on turn 24. for the life of me i couldnt find the US 82 airbourne being withdrawn anytime in the re and re schedule? :crosseye:
i would guess that they should be withdrawn around the same time as the BR para's? we know they have to be withdrawn for market garden and D day, so im at bit of a loss here.
Look harder, the 82nd is withdrawn on the 24th turn. ;)

im still of the opinion that the para's are fragile. the fact that a majority of the terrain in italy is mountainous will usually cause the paras to scattter and/or reoganize.........at least break down in to companys which makes them in my opinion easy prey for the german if he concentrates on eliminating them. they then lose there airboune capability and become inf after that point.[ game rule ]
the amount of airlift points alloted doesnt allow you to drop both the BR and US paras at the same time either i believe. doesnt even allow you to drop all the US paras at once i believe.
if the paras are around for.. say 24 turns i would say it wouldnt be unreasonable to be able to drop them 3 or 4 times?? possibly with a rule that you wait a 2 week/2 move interval between drops so the logistics of it all can be set up again at the airbases etc.
At this scale, 24 turns=12 weeks=3 months. Once per month sounds reasonable. Better yet, Have one TO every three weeks (6 turns) that allows the Allied player to drop 1,200 tons (about enough for 3 rgts/bgds) of paratroopers.
Now, since we'll be using one day turns on the 5km/hex scenario: That'd be 1 TO every 21 turns that allows 3 turns of 500 tons (enough for a single rgt/bgd) to be dropped. How does 'at sound? Silvain, Stefan, and Jono are welcome to wiehg in here, by the way.

remember that we're all trying to change history within the confines of what is reasonable and " what if " ...altho i think you know that and thats why your trying to improve the game. :D
I certainly do, I think my first line of my sig points that out. :D


you know :devious:......the germans in this game have the capability of dropping there paras also! :halo: maybe Hitler will change his mind? of course air superiority may be a problem in that regard too! :laugh:
Hmmm...this will be axed in our new scenario.

on another note......i believe the BR para's were dropped in sicily and fought the german paras on the coast, in the drive for the straights. red devils vs green devils! i dont think the US para's were dropped on sicily???
British Paras were dropped to capture some bridge. American paras were dropped in support of their landings on the left.
 

Veers

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8/28-31/43 T15
Eighth Army:
The UK 7th Armoured continues to advance, while the Canadians are having trouble defeating the German defences at Perugia.
The Kiwis made a 10km advance along the Adriatic coast against the 2nd SS.

Fifth Army:
The 79th PzGrRgt, trapped south of Lake Bolsena, surrendered to US forces.

Major Events:
Field Marshall Courtney establishes his new Headquarters in Rome.
 

stiener

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

At this scale, 24 turns=12 weeks=3 months. Once per month sounds reasonable. Better yet, Have one TO every three weeks (6 turns) that allows the Allied player to drop 1,200 tons (about enough for 3 rgts/bgds) of paratroopers.
Now, since we'll be using one day turns on the 5km/hex scenario: That'd be 1 TO every 21 turns that allows 3 turns of 500 tons (enough for a single rgt/bgd) to be dropped. How does 'at sound? Silvain, Stefan, and Jono are welcome to wiehg in here, by the way.
sounds ok....but :shy:......
ive been thinking about this a little more [ always a bad thing when i think :clown: ]
1st off....i mostly agree with the 24 turns scenario you gave above, but im not sure i totally understand the 5km/hex scenario. if i understand you rht, you can drop 1 rgt/bgd a day? for 3 days?? so in 3 days you have a total of 3 rgt/bgd on the ground?? IMHO you need to be able to drop ALL paras at once or they would be next to useless.

remember i said that we play these games to be able to try to change history within the confines of what is reasonable and what if? well im back to that again...sorry.....IMHO i believe that the allies had the capability to drop all the paras, br and yank, in italy or could get the capability.......remember there was only 2 div present, 1 yank and 1 br. you said yourself they dropped both in sicily.i believe they had the resouces to do it, they had a couple of plans on the drawing board to drop the the paras, so i would like to see that there be enough air lift points availible when the new TO says you can drop them to have the ability to drop them all....both full divisions. maybe not on the same day but over 2 days is a reasonable belief on my part as a gamer. history tells us that 2 divisions were present in italy and that they were planning airbourne operations looking for places and oportunitys to drop them.....so IMHO in order to break a stalemate in the game and have the threat present to the germans there should be more leeway in using the paras.
which brings me to my second para ramble :D. german para's.....again i say what is reasonable and what if......the germans also had the capability to drop paras........hitlers order probably wouldnt have stopped kesselring if he had a plan that had a good chance of success considering his free hand he had in the defence of italy. the germans did drop there paras again in small numbers after crete as we know. herr kesselring was a luftwaffe general and we all no the paras were luftwaffe. and there was 2 div present. i would like to see the germans be able to drop paras......maybe only 1 div.....at say a VP penalty. after all he can activate a german SS div if he wants to......it didnt happen historically, but it could have?

as a wargamer IMHO a great game on TOAW has a few interesting options [ what ifs ] or TO's availible to add the little bit xtra.....to change history as it were.....not drastically change history mind you but you get my drift ;)

id like to say also that i admire the fact the you guys who mod out there, put the time and effort into making these games better for sods like me who dont have the knowledge and time to do it. thank you!

so theres my 3 cents......having heard my ideas, what ever you guys decide to do to make the game better is pretty much ok with me....im really looking forward to playing your new ver... so hurry up! LOL [ actually im looking forward to playing a full game of this ver too!!!!!!! :p ]
thanks for listening :)
 

Silvanski

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

28 oct 1943

Except for the center, Allied progress was slow these past few days but various reinforcements have been spotted making their way north along the east coast.
It's there that the rivers will help our defense.

In the center the surrounded 64 PzGr and 276 Inf regiments aided by aircraft of KG 54assaulted the US VI Corps HQ forcing it to abandon camp -despite massive Allied arty support.
 

stiener

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

lol......not really what i meant :D
do you have a response to my post above? [ your thoughts :cool: ]
 

Veers

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

lol......not really what i meant :D
do you have a response to my post above? [ your thoughts :cool: ]
You'll see I just moved the discussion over to the Italian Campaign Developement thread to keep this one a bit less cluttered. :D
 

Veers

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

10/31-11/3 1943 T16
Eighth Army:
Commandoes landed north of Rimini on the 1st of November surrounding German troops on the Adriatic coast. The US 1st AD was committed here to link up with the Commandoes and to push north. The US 2nd AD, meanwhile joined the New Zealanders in becoming the western flank protection for this northern drive.
Perugia was finally entered by Canadian troops after 3 more days of bloody fighting that also involved two British brigades.

Fifth Army:
A major airborne operation here saw the breakthrough by the UK 1st AD followed up by the immediate dropping of the US 82nd Airborne ahead of them to secure territory and ensure a deep, decisive breakthrough. Unannounced British Divisions have joined them.
The US 34th ID has linked up with the UK 1st AD east of Lake Bolsena, dispersing the GE 24th PzRgt as they advanced. The US 36th ID, meanwhile, began to advance west of Lake Bolsena, linking up with the US 34th, dispersing a German battalion in their advance.
The GE 276th Inf Rgt, trapped east of Lake Bolsena, surrendered. The GE 64th PzG Rgt, trapped east of Viterbo, surrendered to Allied troops.

Major Events:
The newest German defensive line is decisively pierced, with the support of amphibious commandoes and airborne landings.
 

Silvanski

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

Rimini... I was kinda expecting something like that, but too preocuppied with holding a line... how far can I retreat, the northern mapedge? ;-)
 

Veers

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

Rimini... I was kinda expecting something like that, but too preocuppied with holding a line... how far can I retreat, the northern mapedge? ;-)
I'd suggest the Gothic Line, but, since you've lost it south of Rimini, I'd suggest an easterly line that runs along the river next to Ravenna and Forli. This also avoides any easy trapping against the coast. It also has the benefit of leaving one final defence line (The Po) to fall back on.

 

Silvanski

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

Axis t16

The Allied actions near Rimini completely unhinged our defenses.
A lost cause but we'll sell our skin dearly!
 

Veers

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

11/7-10/43 T18
Eighth Army:
Ten German regiments were destroyed southwest of Rimini, three of which were SS.
Fifth Army:
The Fifth continues to make great progress, surrounding a good chunk of German troops that should be able to be destroyed in the next few days.
General:
The German line is collapsing; there is no way Silvain will be able to reform any line before Brenner Pass is reached.
 

Silvanski

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

The situation is most precarious along the western side of the front... but we're receiving some reinforcements.
Delaying tactics will be the order of the day
 

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

11/11-13/43 T19
Eighth Army:
Eighth Army continues to gobble up German troops, as it evaporated three German regiments.
German resitance, however, has stiffened on the east coast, forcing Eighth Army to fight hard for any ground gained.

Fifth Army:
Fifth Army is doing its damndest to try to catch up to the Eighth Army’s body count, evaporating four Regiments themselves.
While the resistance stiffens against Eighth Army, the Germans melt away before the Fifth; only a single PzGrRgt remains a potent unit on the west coast.
 

Telumar

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Re: Italian Campaign (Veers-Allies vs Silvanski-Axis)

Screenies, gentlemen, screenies..
 
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