Italian 3-4-7 Battle Hardens

[hongkongwargamer]

Gents .. if we go by A15.3 The 3-4-7 should BH into 4-4-7. No rules in section A25.6 says otherwise.

However, the 3-4-7 doesn't have a BH option on VASL. Can that be fixed please? Thx

 

[Roadtogundagai]

I think it goes fanatic, not BH to 4-4-7. The 3-4-7 (Bersaglieri - sp?) is an "end of the line" unit in its own right. Check A25.6 in the eASLRB.

EDIT - note that the 3-4-7 is not part of the "tree" for 4-4-7. Implied, but not explicitly stated, that the 3-4-7 does not BH to 4-4-7 and would therefore go fanatic instead.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

A15.3 ...An already elite MMC (or best possible leader or partisan) which is Battle Hardened becomes Fanatic (10.8) and is marked with a Fanatic counter.

This unit is not elite. So it should be replaced by the next higher class as per BH rules, which is the 4-4-7

1st line units that BH straight into being Fanatic like the Finns (A25.72) or the Axis Minor SMG Squad (A25.84) are explicitly stated in the rules.

 

[Roadtogundagai]

I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. If the 3-4-7 were to BH to a 4-4-7 then I would expect to see that progression shown in A25.6. It isn't there. Happy to be proved wrong, of course.

I did a quick search for a PerrySez and came up dry.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. If the 3-4-7 were to BH to a 4-4-7 then I would expect to see that progression shown in A25.6. It isn't there. Happy to be proved wrong, of course.

I did a quick search for a PerrySez and came up dry.

Progression is not shown for Russian 5-2-7 either

Plus I didn’t interpret the rules. It is how it’s stated. We just had a big debate on ASL Discord. I took your side.

 

[Roadtogundagai]

There should be a Q&A somewhere for this. I couldn't find it, but that is likely a "me" thing.

My argument is that the "tree" for Bersaglieri is explicitly stated 3-4-7 -> 3-3-6. If BH to a 4-4-7 was possible that tree would have been shown as 4-4-7 -> 3-4-7 -> 3-3-6. That's how I play it, but I could very well be wrong.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

There should be a Q&A somewhere for this. I couldn't find it, but that is likely a "me" thing.

My argument is that the "tree" for Bersaglieri is explicitly stated 3-4-7 -> 3-3-6. If BH to a 4-4-7 was possible that tree would have been shown as 4-4-7 -> 3-4-7 -> 3-3-6. That's how I play it, but I could very well be wrong.

Yup. That was mine too.

 

[Robert Fabbro]

So if an Italian 346 battle hardens, it becomes an elite 447 and can now use DC and FT with no penalty.
If a 347 battle hardens and becomes Fanatic, it is still subject to non qualified use penalties when using these weapons.
Possibly intended, possibly an oversight, but it seems weird to have such a distinction. Just sayin'...

 

[Mr Incredible]

A15.3 is clear how units BH.

A25.6 Gives examples of how a 347 and 346 are replaced if they suffer ELR failure, that being 336s. It also gives guidance as to how the 336 BHs, which is to a 346 and NOT a 347. The trees show examples of ELR failure, they show nothing about BHing. It does not provide any advice to the contrary of how a 347 BHs, which is to a 447 as per A15.3.

ELR failure is one thing, BHing is something different. BHing is similar to but not the complete opposite of ELR failure.

Without the tree examples, the ELR failure and BH improvement routes are clear if you read the text alone in A15.3 and A25.6.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

@BigAl737 can you pls help with adding a BH option for the Italian 3-4-7. Thx

 

[Robert Fabbro]

A15.3 is clear how units BH.

A25.6 Gives examples of how a 347 and 346 are replaced if they suffer ELR failure, that being 336s. It also gives guidance as to how the 336 BHs, which is to a 346 and NOT a 347. The trees show examples of ELR failure, they show nothing about BHing. It does not provide any advice to the contrary of how a 347 BHs, which is to a 447 as per A15.3.

ELR failure is one thing, BHing is something different. BHing is similar to but not the complete opposite of ELR failure.

Without the tree examples, the ELR failure and BH improvement routes are clear if you read the text alone in A15.3 and A25.6.

Agreed. I believe the VASL module to be in error.

 

[Roadtogundagai]

A15.3 is clear how units BH.

A25.6 Gives examples of how a 347 and 346 are replaced if they suffer ELR failure, that being 336s. It also gives guidance as to how the 336 BHs, which is to a 346 and NOT a 347. The trees show examples of ELR failure, they show nothing about BHing. It does not provide any advice to the contrary of how a 347 BHs, which is to a 447 as per A15.3.

ELR failure is one thing, BHing is something different. BHing is similar to but not the complete opposite of ELR failure.

Without the tree examples, the ELR failure and BH improvement routes are clear if you read the text alone in A15.3 and A25.6.

Thank you - exactly what I was looking for. I have been playing that wrong for a long time

Follow up question, if you would indulge me a little. Based on the above, once a 3-4-7 undergoes BH or ELR reduction it is gone forever? Examples below:
3-4-7 -> (BH) 4-4-7 -> (ELR failure) 3-4-6 -> (ELR failure) 3-3-6
3-4-7 -> (ELR failure) -> 3-3-6 -> (BH) 3-4-6 -> (BH) 4-4-7

 

[Mr Incredible]

Thank you - exactly what I was looking for. I have been playing that wrong for a long time

Follow up question, if you would indulge me a little. Based on the above, once a 3-4-7 undergoes BH or ELR reduction it is gone forever? Examples below:
3-4-7 -> (BH) 4-4-7 -> (ELR failure) 3-4-6 -> (ELR failure) 3-3-6
3-4-7 -> (ELR failure) -> 3-3-6 -> (BH) 3-4-6 -> (BH) 4-4-7

Yup.

347s can be short lived things, never to return.

And to think how stylish they look with their capercaillie feathers in their caps.

Such a shame to lose them.

 

[Roadtogundagai]

For those that remember the comedy show Allo Allo

 

[BigAl737]

@BigAl737 can you pls help with adding a BH option for the Italian 3-4-7. Thx

Been following the discussion. This is something I can do but does this rate a Perry sez first? I’m not intending to offend the answers given up thread. On the contrary, I think I’m showing my own rules ignorance here. I just wanna make sure before changing something that’s been in place in VASL for millennia.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I just wanna make sure before changing something that’s been in place in VASL for millennia.

Prob 'cause you need to roll 5 or lower to BH an Italian unit (0.77% w/ the HOB roll !!)

 

[Robin Reeve]

The only problem I have noticed in this debate is when people confuse ELR Replacement with Battle Hardening mechanics.
The latter work normally for a 347, which is 1st Line and BH to an Elite 447.
Replacement is different, as you have two types of 1st Line units which could be a replaced 447 - thus the rules specification that the 346 is the way to go.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Been following the discussion. This is something I can do but does this rate a Perry sez first? I’m not intending to offend the answers given up thread. On the contrary, I think I’m showing my own rules ignorance here. I just wanna make sure before changing something that’s been in place in VASL for millennia.

Does the Italian 1st Line 3-4-7 BH into an Italian Elite 4-4-7?

Yes.
....Perry
MMP

 

[BigAl737]

Does the Italian 1st Line 3-4-7 BH into an Italian Elite 4-4-7?

Yes.
....Perry
MMP

I’ll get this fixed. Thanks Jackson.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I’ll get this fixed. Thanks Jackson.

Thankyou sir. I wouldn’t be playing without your work.